by Mike Ratliff
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:4-9 ESV)
I grew up as a Southern Baptist in Oklahoma. Even before I was saved in 1986 I had heard from teachers and preachers that Christians are under a dispensation of Grace while Old Testament believers were under a dispensation of the Law. The work Christ did on the cross did away with any need to be concerned about keeping the Law. Now, while that statement, in a sense, is true it is not true in another sense. What am I talking about? As we study the Law of God in the Old Testament we find two distinct sections of the Law. There is the ceremonial Law that includes the very complex system of festivals or feasts and a very detailed system of sacrifices. All of the ceremonial law was intended to be a type or picture of Christ and His work of atonement on the cross. This is a very complex topic and out of topic for this post. Maybe later. 
The other section of God’s Law contains the Ten Commandments and all other commands that reveal God’s standards about sin.
What I was taught in my old denomination was that Christ’s birth, life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension fulfilled the Law and did away with it by establishing a new covenant. As I said earlier, this is partially true and partially false. Yes, Christ did come and establish a new covenant. Thank God! This covenant is a blood covenant that was “cut” with the shedding of Christ’s blood on the cross. Believers partake of this covenant by dying and being Born Again at salvation.
This new covenant abolished the part of the Law dealing with ceremony and sacrifice, but it did not do away with the part of the Law that reveals God’s standard of Righteousness for it is by this Law becoming apparent to our hearts contrasted with our utter lack of righteousness that God uses to draw us into repentance and belief. So, in this sense, Christ did do away with that part of the Law that was completed in Him, but the Righteous Law is fulfilled in Him with the salvation of each believer, as they are saved, being born anew unto perfect Righteousness being imputed to their account.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-20 ESV)
As we look at that passage, taking our previous discussion into account, how can anyone believe that the Law has been done away with? A Gospel presentation is void of power without it. In fact, since the majority of churches these days believe the opposite, there are multitudes of people hearing only the good news part of the Gospel without the bad news of God’s Wrath against sin. Why bother getting saved if there is nothing to be saved from? The Gospel has been whitewashed and morphed into a sales pitch attempting to get people to join a church body or “try Jesus” so He can make their life better.
There is something to be grateful for in this mess, however. That is that God saves His people, His way, in His timing. I was saved “in spite of” being in a church that had it backwards. I’m sure that I am just one of millions in the same boat. If this is true, and I believe it is, then why bother about having the right doctrine and methods? This is what I believe. If we come to Christ in spite of bad theology, we will start our walk by believing it came about by something we did. We are sure that it is all up to us. We believe our salvation is a reward for simply having enough faith to make a decision. This causes us to have a walk that is a hunt for fulfillment rather than a one in which God’s glory in all things is paramount.
When God woke me up to this in 2004, I had been a believer since 1986. That’s a lot of years trying to be fulfilled and victorious by my own efforts. How successful was I in this? Not very. I was trying to be a mature Christian with very little help from God. Why? I was sure it was all up to me. This was born out of the theology I grew up in. I contend that if I had been saved, knowing that it came about by God regenerating my heart and saving me according to His will and for His glory I might have gotten started on my walk on a better footing. If I had been discipled to live for God’s glory alone I would not have wasted all those years chasing after the wind in church.
Now, do we see how important the Law of God is in our salvation? I was convinced that I was not under the Law. I was under Grace instead. While I am under Grace, God’s standards of Righteousness are still very much in effect. I heard a sermon today by C. Matthew McMahon of “A Puritan’s Mind.” In it, he contrasted God’s covenant of Works with His covenant of Grace. In this sermon, I learned that all people are in covenant with God. Christians are in the blood covenant of Grace. They will not be judged according to the Law at the final Judgment because Jesus Christ took that judgment upon Himself on the cross. However, all non-believers, being under the covenant of Works, are held accountable for every one of their sins. According to the Law of God, it only takes one to condemn any one of us outside of God’s Grace. These people will be judged according to God’s Law in every deed they have ever done. In this sense Jesus will have fulfilled the Law by being their judge.
Praise God that He saves us in spite of ourselves and the ineptness of the church leaders we are under. As the realization of God’s sovereignty hit me like a ton of bricks, I became so grateful that I really have a hard time expressing it. God is not passively sitting around hoping we will find our way to Him. He created the way to salvation for us. He does the work necessary to draw us to believe and repent. It is His work. As I said, I am more grateful than I can express and I love Him with my entire being. Oh Lord, I pray that you will be glorified in your servants!
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hey this article seems to be heading in the right direction for a long time and then i have trouble following it when the lack of free will concept comes in, its like you just took off in another direction
to establish whether or not i understand what you were saying, i have a couple questions
you do the things in torah that are not linked to temple sacrifice? does that include no blended fibers, no pork shellfish or predators, a fence on your rooftop, sabbath (7th day, ie saturday) observance, and some of the holidays?
an example of a holiday not about the death and rebirth of messiah is Rosh Hashana, it is a biblical holiday that prophetically commemorates the last trump and the second coming
those are not all the non-ceremonial laws by a long shot either
another question is, even if you have not previously considered these things in this light, or are unable to immediately do all of them, would you agree that they are all beneficial?
that is my perspective, i would never introduce someone to those things as salvation requirements but they are all beneficial, or ‘for God’s glory’ as you would say
my impression at first is that you feel the same way and then you lose me when predestination comes into the equation, so that just sends me right back to studying that point
Max,
All people are in Covenant with God. All lost people are under the Covenant of Works. All saved people are under the Covenant of Grace. The Legal part of the Law pertaining to Righteousness, ie. God’s standards, is valid in both convenants, but in different ways. The ceremonial Law which includes all the rules about food, clothing, slave holding, feasts, festivals, sacrifices, etc. all of it that is not pertaining to SIN was fulfilled in Christ. All of it. That is why the temple sacrificial system was destroyed and, as I am sure you have noticed, it is still destroyed.
The new covenant of Grace is a blood covenant. It was cut with the shedding of Christ’s blood on the cross. His death sealed it. Our death in salvation is what brings us into this covenant.
I hope you have noticed that I don’t use the word predestination very often. Why? It is misused and misunderstood by most people. You have some sort of hang up about it and tend to think that it means something it doesn’t. Please, before you comment further on any of my posts about this, please read the article that I suggested you read. I have no problems calmly discussing any of this with you, but I refuse to get into a fruitless argument about it. It took God several months to break down my resistence to Reformed Theology. During that time I was reading everything I could get my hands on about it along with Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism. To understand these things CORRECTLY we must leave our emotions at the door and be willing to pray and beleive what God shows us. That is what I did. I pray the He will open your Heart to the truth as well. Be blessed Max
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
i just want to thank you for bearing with me, and to assure you that i am interested in the truth and not in argument for its own sake
that being said, i would like to ask you to give an accounting of your understanding of how, in particular, you can categorize food and slave holding for instance as ceremonial and not moral, and how in contrast ‘sexual immorality’ and ‘things strangled’ (which is in fact one of the dietary laws) are the opposite – i dont think those things could any less be said to refer to sin
my original questions were to prompt you to reexamine your categorization of a number of things, as they do not seem to be consistent with scriptural categorization
Concerning the nature of the discussion, i only replied to this article because it specifically was not primarily about predestination in the first place and i think its mention was off topic – for which reason i declined to address anything in the article after you mentioned it. I do not wish to have a confused discussion of differing concepts (unfruitful) either.
I am very glad that you have patience to discuss with me at all, it is clearly very important to you to have the truth, as that represents God. My only request is that you refrain from the prideful assumption that in every case of our difference your previous understanding is correct. I think God brought your blog to my attention because both you and I require some improvement.
In light of our mutual potential for benefit, I would ask that when you respond you do us both the favor of addressing my specific arguments rather than restating your own previous arguments that i was addressing.
I must apologize in advance for my relative lack of knowledge concerning established christian theology – I have spent a few years now pursuing studies of the scripture, but it has been from quite an unusual starting point, and by an unusual process. I have never been interested in standard schooling, so my education has not typically been structured as most peoples’. Notwithstanding, i have seen many blessings in my life since i became saved, and God has i think guided me in my education as he does all people, with the result that i have a clear understanding of a lot of scripture.
As i begin discussion with you, please try to remember this and be honest in discussing things with me rather than attempting to represent your understanding as perfect in all regards, and myself the fortunate recipient of your inerrant teaching.
Max,
My understanding on the Law’s relationship to Grace is found in Paul. The book of Galatians, in particular, is Paul’s epistle to the churches in the Galatia berating them for listening to Judaizers who had come into these churches that had been planted by Paul and Barnabas in their first missionary journey. These Judaizers told these Gentile believers that they were indeed saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, but in order to be real Christians they must also keep the Law. The whole book of Galatians is Paul’s reasoning about how foolish this is and is not what he had preached to them. The keeping of the Law is works. Works saves no one. The parts of the Law you are referencing about food, etc. are not part of the Law that defines sin according to God’s standards. Those are found in the Ten Commandments. All sin is covered there.
My “categorization” of these things is scriptural and correct since this is what is taught in the New Testament. The whole point of this post was to show that Christianity has its basis in the spirit of the Ten Commandments. Read Matthew 5,6 & 7. This is Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and has all we need to understand how we are to live as Christians.
My “assumption” that I am correct is not based in pride. This is a fallacy of our relativistic culture that says that no one can possibly know the truth completely. That is a load of garbage. I know what the Word of God says, I have the Holy Spirit who guides me. I pray to God for wisdom and discernment. My understanding of doctrine is always growing, but never retreating. God has opened my eyes to understand things because I am a teacher of the Word. If you refuse to accept that then I’m sorry, but I will never agree that we cannot know the truth.
That being said, I have spent the last two years constantly reading doctrine, reformed texts, along with being involved with many other educated theologians who have verified my understanding of the Doctrines of Grace. I am constantly learning, but I refuse to accept the idea that anyone who does not know the tenets of Reformed Theology or Covenant Theology can tell me that I don’t know what I am talking about in these areas. This isn’t pride, but it is coming from a mind full of these doctrines which my heart has grasped as the most wonderful doctrines we can ever know. I am enthusiastic about them and will never forsake them because they teach that God is sovereign and His glory is paramount in all things. No other theological package does that.
My resistance to your arguments may be perceived as me coming across as I know it all and your understanding is flawed. Sorry if this is your impression, but you must understand that I have covered all of this ground more times than I can count on my own journey. I know the arguments. I know what your are struggling with because I have been there. Please don’t think that I think I am perfect. Ha. I am far from it. I do not know everything, but I do know this doctrine very well. I am not at the level of James White, John Piper or R.C. Sproul, because my role is different from theirs. My role is to teach. My job is to be as equipped to do this as possible. To do this, I study and pray about this all the time. I am hungry for God. My heart’s desire is to have all believers turn their hearts back to God and become Spirit-led.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
oops once again you managed not to specifically address my arguments and misinterpret them generally
i never said anything about that stuff being related to salvation, in fact i said the opposite in agreement with scripture and with you
i did say, in agreement (i think) with you, that much of the torah is beneficial
the only difference is what parts and you have yet to demonstrate how refraining from blood and things strangled, as the apostles decided to minimally advise believers so as not to trouble them with a huge set of ordinances, are different from refraining from pork and shellfish
you still have not mentioned anything about how Jesus has already fulfilled sukkhot when it is specifically about the second coming
i do not assert than nothing is knowable, but i do think that you need to be careful when asserting that your understanding is not subject to change, because no matter what you say that is pride
in any case, i have seen what passes for intellectual honesty here in your personal discussion area, and after i post a few points regarding free will in the hope that God forces you to actually be humble, i will be done discussing anything with you – you have a tendency to go on at length and do not allow for potential correction. That being the case, whether or not calvinism and reformation theology are correct our discussion cannot be anything but, as you say, unfruitful
short of specific divine revelation (as with the apostles), backed up with signs and wonders (again, like the apostles) i am going to go ahead and assume that nobody has the full right of it today, and that anyone who asserts that they do is not completely honest
i will be praying for God to bless you with some correction and true humility, so that you can see more clearly and continue developing rather than stagnating in your incomplete understanding of scripture
Max,
I find this very interesting that you are lecturing me on being prideful when it is you who are assuming you know the truth and will not listen to what I am trying to tell you. Perhaps I have not made myself clear. I am NOT GOING BACK to the lies of Pelagianism. I will not entertain them. I will not even consider then for a second. I will not allow anyone to come into my blog and try to convince me that the truth is not truth and that Satan’s lie that Man’s will is sovereign over God’s will is truth. You cannot come up with one scritpure that teaches that. You can only find scripture that speaks of men responding to God’s drawing them to Him.
As far as sin and salvation goes, I did not answer your questions about sin directly because there isn’t enoguh space here or time on my side to address what I see as a Grace vs. Legalism issue. You are being legalistic which shouldn’t surprise anyone since Pelagianism is ripe with it because it allows for no Grace since it is all based on Free Will.
What you are interpreting as pride on my part is actually my refusal to be drawn back into the clutches of heresy. I will NOT go there. Why? I know the truth. That is not a prideful statement even if you think it is it isn’t. Do I know all the truth. NO. I will not ever know it all this side of eternity. However, I do know what is not the truth and that is Pelagiansim and all of it’s bastard children such as Arminianism and Semi-Pelagiansim. They are not the truth because they make Grace unnecessary and that violates scripture no matter how much you can beat around the bush with side issues.
Also, you keep asking what sin is for the Christian. Sin for the Christian is to disobey God where you know that God has made either a positive or negative command in some area. For instance, I had a friend who was convicted that he shouldn’t drink Tea. Because God told Him not to drink Tea, is it wrong for me to drink Tea? No, that was his conviction not mine. I have not addressed the benificial asspects of the ceremonial law because, what’s the point? It isn’t sin to do any of it or not do any of it UNLESS we do them in place of our devotion to God. If we do that then it is Idolatry.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
mike
perhaps you are reading my posts too quickly,
i want to have an honest discussion, and i still would if you would simply read my whole post and respond to that, not to what you assume i am saying
i am not unwilling to change my views based on self-consistent arguments based on scriptural evidence
and once again, i was attempting not to discuss free will right here because that is NOT the topic of this article
i think that there is good reason to discuss what things it is good and not good for people to do, and on what basis – my understanding is that God arranged the world in such a way that people suffer *temporally* for temporal mistakes
if you make a habit of eating unclean foods you’re going to be less healthy
if you work on the sabbath you’re going to be tiring yourself out and not getting any more than you would if you didn’t
i think that advising people against such considerations is anti-scriptural, just as telling people that they cause salvation is anti-scriptural
the teachings in torah are different from your friend’s conviction not to drink tea in that they are things that God taught to a group of people for the purpose of making them healthier and more pure than those around them
they are also different from the sacrificial (ceremonial) laws with which you seem to be categorizing them
on this subject i wonder how you interepret
Matthew 5:19 – i hope you dont apply them to the beatitudes, because a)those are not commands and b)that removes the context of the passage, which is talking about the law and its relation to saved individuals
or what is the purpose of acts 15:21?
i understand this to mean that the apostles did not concern themselves with teaching the law, not because it shouldn’t be taught but because it takes second place to the importance of teaching salvation through grace
i am sorry that it is taking me a while to consider and respond to calvinistic theology, i hope you understand that it is because it is something i had not previously even considered and i would like to fully understand it before i attempt to discuss it, particularly with one so well-versed as yourself
Max,
I’ve read and re-read several of your posts, and I’m not exactly sure where you’re coming from. However, I’ve had a good bit of study & research (though not nearly enough for a doctorate/degree on the subject) on Torah and its relation to both Jews and Christians.
First: Requirements of Christians. You bring up Acts 15, where the church elders exercised their authority to bind and loose in interpreting what of Torah must be followed by gentile believers.
Acts 15:18 is the short-hand summation for the keeping of the Noahide Laws from the Jerusalem Council.
Jewish Christians, though, were to follow the complete Torah, because they had attended synagogue where Moses’ words have always been preached.
Mike is correct in that Jesus completed the purpose of the ceremonial & sacrificial laws, which came into being because of the covenant between Abraham and God in Genesis 15.
As for the slave-related laws, these did not command that slavery be practiced, but – in a culture where that practice was in existence – taught how to treat those who were slaves.
Should Christians follow Torah (including dietary laws)?
This is a tricky question, because “should” is a loaded word. Torah, which we translate “law”, is probably better translated as “instructions” or “guidance”. Some laws – like the dietary ones – were given specifically to Jews as a way of setting them apart as the chosen people (chosen to be the keepers of the Word of God). Messianic Jews today still follow torah, but most of them I am familiar with do not expect that their gentile brothers are required to do the same (based on the Acts 15 passage, and on the interpretation of Torah that some of the instructions are for priests only, some for the high priest only, some for the Jews, and some for all men).
Why should we follow the parts of Torah we choose to follow? Out of love for God, not out of responsibility (“paying Him back” – which is impossible) or out of obligation (“blind adherence to rules” – which is just empty works). Should you choose to follow parts of Torah that do not apply to you (leaving the corners of your field unharvested – which was a way of giving to the poor without stripping them of their dignity, so in our day would be anonymously providing for the needs of the poor), these would be honored by God if done out of love for him and not out of duty or responsibility (a matter of the heart).
The whole predestination vs. free will argument is a different matter. Both extremes within Calvinism and Arminianism seem to be outside of God’s truth. God is in control of everything. God may choose to cause some things to happen (His will and ‘predestination’), but others He permits, based on the choices of individuals and the chaos that remains within creation. Both of these ‘systemic theologies’ have parts that work and parts that do not, in the same way that Newtonian Physics can explain a good number of things within certain parameters, but falls apart under other situations. Better put, both of these ‘-isms’ are human constructs to explain the nature of God, which is much bigger than human understanding, and thus, are not perfect.
We can understand God to a point, after which our fear (respect) must take over, and we must allow His mystery to be sufficient.
Chris L,
Amen, that was a very good explanation of the Torah and how it relates to Christians. I really appreciate you sharing this with us. I also liked your explanation of Calvinism and Arminianism. I am a Calvinist, but I am certainly not a hyper-Calvinist and I have many good Arminian friends who are genuine Christians. My approach to this is to try to focus Christians away from religiousity and onto God Himself. We love Him, we serve Him, we obey Him all because He saved us and we don’t deserve it nor could we ever earn it. To me this is far more important for Chrisitians to be concerned about rather than religion. Again, thank you very much for your comment.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
haha somehow i am in agreement with almost all of the last two comments by the two of you
i have been formulating my understanding of predestination vs free will but if i understand what you are saying properly you have stated what seems to be the best conclusion, the basis for and ramifications of which i am currently investigating – that predestination and human free will are not mutually exclusive and that in fact both are the case
chris, the only thing i disagree with is
that the dietary laws ‘were given specifically to Jews as a way of setting them apart as the chosen people (chosen to be the keepers of the Word of God)’ and the implication that such things cannot sensibly be applied to gentiles
the dietary laws are a health matter, imho, one which is still around today
pork is unhealthy even if properly refrigerated and fully cooked, which is partially attested to by the fact that God didn’t just tell Israel to make sure to cook it fully, the same with shellfish
i think that this understanding applies to quite a bit of what christianity today labels (incorrectly in my view) as ceremonial, and it is from this understanding that i believe many people (including mr ratliff and yourself) could benefit
on the subject of holiness hardly a zealous christian today would disagree that christians are supposed to be set apart – the idea does not trouble them, as was the apostles’ concern with converts – on the contrary, people desire it
what i fail to understand is why so many people seem to prefer to create their own ideas of holiness rather than using biblical precedent
it is particularly poignant in light of Mark 7:9, which i see no reason not to apply to christians if they do the same thing that the Jews did
my only guess is that it is a vestige of anti-semitism left in christian doctrine from a time when replacement theology was the norm and judaism to most christians meant christ-killing
None of this has anything to do with free will, predestination, or salvation, but they are very commonly poorly understood and taught and not as trivial as a lot of people pretend (see Matt. 5:19)
Mike if you do not have time to discuss this topic right now,just say so
But please do calm down, im not as antagonistic as i fear i came across with my initial reaction to your predestination article
please allow me to apologize a second time for that, it was an emotional reaction to the idea of man not having free will, which is i think an untenable position, and which if you actually believe (though that is not what your agreement with chris here indicates) i will be addressing in the comment section of that article
Thank you Chris for your excellent comment, it is confirmation to me that this discussion is God-ordained for the purpose of improving everyone involved, and for His hand in our lives and intellectual journeys i must continually give thanks
Praise be to God who gives us fruit in its due season
Max,
I am not going address the legalism issues with you as I see that you still believe in a legalistic form of Holiness. Chris’ explanation is the correct one.
As far as my understanding of Free Will, it exists only in God. Natural Man , unregenerate Man, has a will, but since all people are born with a dead (non-functioning) spirit there is no capability or desire to seek God.
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience– among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved– and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:1-7 ESV)
In this passage Paul is telling CHRISTIANS that it took a Quickening of their Spirit to make them Born Again so that they could believe and repent.
How dead is dead?
‘What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.”, “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”‘ (Romans 3:9-18 ESV)
This is a description of all unsaved people. This is what we are all like unless God Quickens our Spirit. Yes, all people make choices like what tie to wear or what to eat or what their favorite color is. But unless God regenerates or Quickens the heart there is no ability to be saved.
“For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me– not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life.” (John 6:33-48 ESV)
In this passage you have the exact topic that Chris and I were agreeing on. In it we see that no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them. NO ONE. That means that unless the Father draws them they will not be saved. Also, in this passage you have statements by Jesus that all who come to Him will be saved. Are all professing Christians saved? No, that is obvious. So this can’t be talking about all people who become “Religious Christians” being truely saved. This passage tells us that all the Father draws and gives to Christ will be saved and He will lose none of them. Where is Free Will in this passage Max? Where is it in Romans 3 passage? In these passages we have people coming to Christ, but they do not come via Free Will. They must believe and repent, but that comes After they have been drawn. What is this “drawing” that God does? That Greek word is a word picture of a man drawing fish out of the water in a net, or a man drawing water from a well in a bucket. Neither the fish nor the water have a choice. Both would rather stay where they are. But the one drawing is the one choosing and doing not the one being drawn.
There is a lot more meat in these passages than I am giving you right now, but this is enough for now. There are also many other passages we can look at, but again, this is enough for now.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
oh i misunderstood chris, thinking that he was including positive actions on our part like ‘believe’ and ‘come’ in the range of things that God allows us to choose freely, something which you deny
my understanding of the calling to him and predestination of grace is that everything will come to an end, with the truth being proclaimed to all in no uncertain terms before the last trump, and everyone making a choice of their own free will – which coincides with God’s will and which would not be possible except that he made it so through his grace. The one drawing is choosing AND the one being drawn is choosing. I believe parents spend several years of each of their childrens’ lives convincing them that they should be doing what they are taught because it is good for them, teaching them that they should want to do it, and why – likewise there is a great deal of logic in setting a disobedient child up to be an example for his siblings.
i am responding specifically to what seems to be foremost in your post, rather than waiting until i have finished writing an essay on the subject because you seem insistent that i do so rather than honestly discuss another unrelated topic in the meantime
concerning your view of me as legalistic, i do not understand why you think that as i have not tried to relate torah observance to salvation. I only asserted that you do not understand it or the apostles and the messiah concerning it very well. My guess is that is because the concepts you have primarily studied have their origins in very anti-semitic individuals and institutions. I think you would do well to take a second look at it. I have already made some points all you have to do is respond to them specifically to begin, and we will both have our understanding increased to the glory of God.
Before you do so, I must ask that you be very certain you understand what I am saying, and if necessary ask questions (which I will answer specifically, as i tried to do with you) to get me to clarify my points.
I am humbly asking you to recognize that you are refusing to allow this conversation to be fruitful by failing to make the choice to honestly discuss theology with me.
I pray that we can have a fruitful discussion together, and I trust that in time it will all be made clear.