by Mike Ratliff
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:15-17 ESV)
I posted The Lamb Opens the Scroll on May 2nd. In that post, we looked at each of the first six seals that The Lamb opened of the seven that seal up the scroll in Heaven. Only The Lamb was found worthy to open the scroll. Revelation 6 ends with the sixth seal that gives us a preview of The Day of the Lord or the Great Tribulation that will begin when the Lamb opens the Seventh Seal. However, there are two very interesting things that are revealed to us after the Sixth seal is opened. The first one is a question asked by those hiding from God’s wrath. We find that question in Revelation 6:17. Those pleading with the mountains and rocks to fall on them for protection from the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of the one seated on the throne, ask, “for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” The second thing revealed to us is the answer to that question.
Revelation 7 forms a parenthetical statement between the Sixth and Seventh Seals. It is the answer to the question asked in 6:17. Before we go any further let’s try to understand that persecution and suffering is not God’s Wrath being poured out on believers. God’s wrath is not for His saints. However, that does not mean that God will keep Satan’s seed from filling up the cup of His wrath against them by their evil actions against Christians. In fact, in God’s economy, there is an “eternal blessedness” associated with this sort of suffering.
10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:10-12 ESV)
With the opening of the Sixth seal, things are getting very serious. The dawn of the The Day of the Lord has come like a thief on the Earth. Those with no discernment were not aware that God’s Judgment was coming. Only those with discernment of the signs given to God’s people as warnings are prepared. The Great Apostasy has begun, but awaits the revealing of the Lawless One to trigger the falling away into the false worship within the Scarlet Woman. However, at this moment we are at the Dawn of the Day of the Lord and the Seventh Seal has not been opened. God has given us His answer to us of who will not fall into the Great Apostasy and worship of the Beast.
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” (Revelation 7:1-3 ESV)
In v1 we are given a picture of four Angels stopping the moving of the wind on the Earth. Without the wind there would be no variableness in the weather. The essential engine of the wind would be stopped. This is not permanent, but during this brief interlude, there will be no wind on the Earth. I believe that is to show us God’s sovereignty and immutability in His protection of those on planet Earth who belong to Him. Those who can stand while God’s Wrath is poured out on the Earth are those who received God’s seal on their foreheads, which is His name (Revelation 14:1). Of course, this is not a seal men can see, but one God uses to mark those who are His so His servants can see. Who is sealed?
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. (Revelation 7:4-8 ESV)
These are 144,000 servants of God that are sealed and are representative of the twelve tribes of Israel. This number is not the only ones who are saved, but these Jews will be protected from the wrath of Satan and the Antichrist. We already know that God does not pour His wrath out on His saints, so the enemies of God are sealed off from harming these 144,000 because God’s name is on their foreheads. What is the purpose of this? The next part of Revelation 7 describes another group who can stand while God’s wrath is poured out. The fact that they are described immediately after the list of 12,000 from each tribe of Israel tells us that these are the fruit of the missionary work of the 144,000. The 144,000 are the redeemed Jews whom God uses in the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles during the tribulation. This is described in vv9-17. The 144,000 will be the first fruits of a new redeemed Israel. We find this described in Zechariah 12:10. Please notice that by His sovereign election, God seals 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes for His purpose to accomplish His will.
While God’s seal on their forehead will divinely protect the 144,000, those whom come to believe through their ministries do not have that level of protection.
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:9-17 ESV)
These are people in Heaven wearing white robes. In vv13-14 we see they are the believers coming out of the great tribulation. This is not a snap shot picture of a complete group. In v14 the Angel tells John that these are “coming out of” the Great Tribulation. We know that it has not begun at this point, but will begin shortly. Therefore, we are given a multi-dimensional view forward from the sealing of the 144,000 through the Great Tribulation until their number is complete. The Greek word that is translated “the ones coming” is actually a present participle. This means it indicates continuous or repeated action. This group grows. They “are coming out” of the Great Tribulation. Therefore, John’s view here is a group who has suffered much (v16). They are now free from persecution and suffering and are in the presence of the Lamb because they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. God redeems them via the missionary work of the 144,000.
During my research, I came across a very disturbing passage.
9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)
Therefore, we know that the great multitude that John saw in Heaven does not contain any of those who received the strong delusion from God to believe what is false. Who is this group? Why are they different than those who wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb? These are the ones who are perishing because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. These are the ones who hear the gospel before the Tribulation and reject it. They will be doomed to spend eternity without Christ. Those who are saved during the Great Tribulation are those who have not rejected the gospel prior to it. This seems to me to be those who have never heard it because those who hear it must either believe or not. I firmly believe that God will save His elect, but He uses our faithfulness in sharing the complete gospel to work in their hearts so they can repent and believe thereby washing their robes white in the blood of The Lamb. Therefore, why are we not sharing our faith with the lost who are all around us?
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Hello Mike,
What if the “tribulation” in Revelations 7:13-15 KJV, is refering to another interpetation of the “tribulation” that many Christian’s experience everyday and not a “end-time” tribulation?
Comfirning the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through MUCH TRIBULATION enter into the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22 KJV).
That no man should be moved by these afflictians: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told before that we should SUFFER TRIBULATION; even as IT CAME TO PASS, and ye know (1 Thessalonians 3:3,4 KJV).
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in TRIBULATION, and in the kingdom and paitence of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was IN THE SPIRIT on THE LORD’S DAY, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a TRUMPET (Revelation 1:9 KJV).
With verses like these (I can list more), are you sure that these that came out of “great tribulation” washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:13-15 KJV) was not speaking of everyday persecutions of the saints of all times and not necessarily an “end time” tribulation?
As I understood “tribulation” prophecy, it was Israel or a remenant of Israel, that was protected through the “tribulation” and not the church (Revelation 12:13-16 KJV). The church going through tribulation and persecution today because of the “spiritual newbirth”, is a parallel to the Jews going through the “great tribulation” in the future as a fulfillment of prophecy. I believe that all the end time prophesy confusion is caused by two sets of prophecies (one spiritual and one natural) running parallel. Could people with no spirital “eyes to see” or “ears to hear”, be trying to inter mingle the two?
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailist not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we , brethern, AS ISAAC was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born AFTER THE SPIRIT, even so it is NOW (Galatians 4:27-29) KJV).
Now if any “Christians” wants to try and make the claim that they are somehow also the same Jews in the Old Testament prophecies of the end time, they better take heed to Jesus warning! Remember that Jesus is talking to THE CHURCH at Philidelphia!!!
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (Revelation 3:9 KJV).
This is my last warning on this post. There is a “prophet’ coming to fulfill end time prophecy, but it will not be Elijah. He will though gladly point to his “messiah” and the Jews and whoever else that is still looking for a “prophet” to come will be amazed.
Good Evening,
Franklin Whittenburg
Frank,
Of course we are all in tribulation, but to rip Revelation 7 out of context and make it say it does not refer to the The Tribulation is not good exegesis.
I think you need to start looking at scripture via the original languages rather than the KJV exclusively. I have found way too many examples of wrong Tense, Mood and Voice usage in it to trust in on critical passages.
Also, you said: Now if any “Christians” wants to try and make the claim that they are somehow also the same Jews in the Old Testament prophecies of the end time, they better take heed to Jesus warning! Remember that Jesus is talking to THE CHURCH at Philidelphia!!!
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (Revelation 3:9 KJV).
This is talking about how those claiming to be Jews because of their heritage are not real Jews at all. Only those who really know the Father are true Israelites. Who really knows the Father? Only those who know the SON!
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike – Interesting exegesis. Thanks for taking the time to study and write it. I imagine at times this site is like a fulltime job for you! =)
Wake, Thanks, and yes.
I had the impression that the “Jews” today really don’t know anymore which tribe they came from. But if the Bible actually has that 12,000 sealed Jews would come from every tribe, then apparently, some Jews do know from which tribe they came from.
Basically, after 70 A.D., all things Jewish, in the way we knew it from the Bible, ceased to exist, being destroyed by Roman army. But this may be an error I was exposed to from preterists???
Preterists and Christian Reconstructionists believe that the Church is Israel now, that the Church has inherited the blessings that were bestowed upon Israel. Israel is now just another nation on earth, having been “divorced” from God as symbolized by the ripping of the veil. Sigh….some things I got to un-learn!
Timothy,
You are right, they don’t know, but God does know. I try to simply exegete what I read in scripture. Are genuine believers Israel now while the nation of Israel just another nation? I am working on this just as you are.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Amen Mike on the reply to Frank. We agree once more! May God continue to use you in a mighty way via internet seeing how thats all some of us have since almost all of the ‘churches’ have gone, well………..just plain goofy.
Paul,
Thanks brother, and yes, goofy is a very good way to describe it.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
You are right, they don’t know, but God does know.
Exactly! =)
Preterists and Christian Reconstructionists believe that the Church is Israel now, that the Church has inherited the blessings that were bestowed upon Israel.
Yes they do believe that, but that is a concept created in the white spaces of the text, so to speak, because it does not exist in the Bible.
One thing that stands out is the glaring avoidance of the fact that all of the curses mentioned in the very same passages have been and continue to be literally fulfilled on the specific group of people they were prophesied on, and thus there is no logical or contextual reason to take a different tact for the blessings ascribed so clearly to the very same people. In much the same way that prophecies about the Messiah are split-fulfilled, part in the first coming, part in the second, there are also prophecies about curses and blessings on Israel that also bear the same type of delayed fulfillment due to the mystery period of the church. They go through a time of trial and persecution, but God will not forget them and has promised to restore them again.
In the New Testament, at every occasion when Christ (and later his apostles) was asked by the Jews about the promised kingdom coming, and the opportunity was perfect for Christ to present a new replacement theology (that the church replaces Israel and usurps the blessings coming to her), and where He could have explicitly corrected the Jews who asked Him about such things, never is such a thing stated. Always the answer is that it will be fulfilled and it will happen just as prophesied and often it is accompanied by a description of the season or time in which they can expect it to occur (e.g. The Olivet Discourse).
We have a Bible full of very literal fulfillments of prophesy, so we have no reason to presuppose that prophesy that has not yet been clearly fulfilled either has been fulfilled already but in some figurative way, or that God has changed his mind. It’s really just doubting God, much like Sarah did about bearing the child of promise – Isaac. She tried to make an excuse for God because she thought she was doing Him a favor by trying to explain away the promise and by her own means (her handmaiden Hagar) fulfill God’s promise for Him. Instead all she did was create the greatest trouble the Jews have had their whole existence – their distant brethren the Arabs (and eventually the Muslims). We still see the drastic consequences of this today in vivid detail in the Middle East.
In much the same way the church (initially through the encouragement of secular Rome which brought in Christianity to be the official religion and had been looking down on and persecuting the Jews ever since their rebellion in 68-70AD and thus encouraged the church to interpret scripture along those lines) has tried to explain away God’s promises to the Jews because (at least prior to 1948) they saw no possible way they could ever be fulfilled. As a result of Christians’ attempts to “help” God by claiming the promises now go to the Church, they raised to a new height the practice of anti-semitism, as seen in the pogroms and persecution of Jews throughout Europe and Catholic areas around the globe by “Christians” ever since the diaspora began and especially during the Dark Ages and up through to modern times.
Same old story: Man doubts God at his word, man tries to ‘help’ God keep his word, man ends up causing horrible consequences by his unbelief.
Wake and all,
When I put this together last night I simply made up my mind to exegete the scripture just as I did with the Olivet Discourse, etc. It is a very dangerous thing to divide up scripture claiming that one part of our Lord’s words are only for the Jews while other parts are only for the Church. I do not believe that unless our Lord specifically spoke that way. My view of the Bible is via God’s Covenants with His people. Never forget that the Old Covenant is fulfilled in Christ. That is why the Temple and all of the trappings that went with it was destroyed just a few short years after our Lord ascended to Heaven. God is operating with His people via the New Covenant. There are promises to Israel via the Abrahamic Covenant. However, is this speaking of a race of people or is it speaking of Abraham’s descendants via Faith? I have not studied this enough to dogmatically say one way or the other. However, we must let go of the notion that the Old Covenant is coming back. No, it was fulfilled in Christ with the shedding of His blood. The Ten Commandments are now Christ’s commands to His people as God’s standards for us, etc.
Are the 144,000 Racial Jews or are they simply representative of God’s servants during that period? Let us continue to exegete scripture and not follow what men have said. That is what I am trying to do. I want to simply state what the Bible says without any tainting from Men and what their favorite Eschatological theory is.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
I love this study! Would you consider a different viewpoint on the timing of the seals trumpets and bowls? If you would consider a different timing scenario, it will shed new light on different aspects such as the sealing of the 144,000.
What if the seals, trumpets and bowls are not sequential? What if they are happening at the same time, parallel to each other on a time line with certain events in each grouping coinciding at different points on that time line. Examples would be the 24 elders falling in worship, peals of thunder, stars falling from heaven, the moon turning to blood, great multitudes in heaven, John about to worship an angel. I do not believe that John would make the mistake of falling down to worship the angel twice. Originally I thought these events were happening simulateously until I came to the seals and trumpets. At first it seems that the seventh seal contains the seven trumpets. However, closer inspection I see the seventh seal ending at chapter 8:1 with the seventh seal being silence in heaven for half an hour. I see chapter 8:2 starting the trumpets. If chapter 8 had started at verse 2 instead of verse 1, I would have seen the seven trumpets as a completely seperate event that John is seeing.
When I was reading the seals, trumpets and bowls as sequential in time I came across several problems such as the resurrection/rapture occuring in each grouping. For example I see the “rapture” at the:
1. first sickle (14:15-16)
2. sixth seal (7:14)
3. seventh trumpet (11:15)
4. seventh bowl (16:15-21)
Now how can this be if these groupings of seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential? However if they are on the same time-line with certain events coinciding, then it makes perfect sense. I am not saying 1st seal equals 1st trumpet equals first bowl. That does not work at all. What I am saying is that they are parallel to each other and some events from each grouping coincide with events in the other two groupings.
If you decide to consider this timing possibilty you might consider that the 144,000 jews who are sealed are not evangelizing at all. They are either in hiding or hidden throughout the nations. The reason I say they are not evangelizing is because it is like they turn back to Christ in one day. When they are mourning for him in Zechariah 12:10-14 it is they day they LOOK upon Jesus physically. In chapter 13:1 we see that it is ON THAT DAY that a fountain will be opened up to the House of David to cleanse them. I believe the 144K are sealed for their protection during the wrath of God being poured out on those who are not sealed with the Holy Spirit. I believe that these 144K realize that the anti-christ is not their savior but are not yet saved. They do not yet know Jesus Christ which is why when they see him, they turn back to him and realize who He is and mourn when they realize they had killed and rejected their own messiah.
Isaiah 10:20, Isaiah is talking about the day of the Lord and how it will happen in a SINGLE DAY 10:17. He then goes on to talk about the surviors.
Isaiah 10:20 “IN THAT DAY the remnant of Israel, THE SURVIVORS OF THE HOUSE OF JACOB, will no longer rely on him who struck them down (anti-christ) but will TRULY rely on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel………..”
I am very open to discussion and I hope that you will consider the above timing sequence. You don’t have to answer right now, just read and consider over time, prayer and study and let me know what you receive.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Mike: I totally agree. Not sure why you continue to try to make me out to be talking about the old covenant when I’m not: I’m clearly referring to the promises of the Abrahamic covenant that are reiterated throughout the OT – namely the promised land and living in peace there, and so on. You know what God reiterates to the Jews as well or better than I do, so you know what I’m referring to. So I’m not sure why you continue to make the same statement about the old covenant when that’s not something I’ve claimed.
Also, regarding whether passages in Scripture mean something literally or not, I again agree with you – take them at face value, don’t try to make them say something they aren’t. That’s actually my entire point. Much error on both extremes (covenantal and dispensational) comes from reading things into the text or presupposing things onto it) as you know.
Yet for some reason this same process has happened two or three times now:
You say you desire to faithfully exposit the word.
I say, yes, excellent, a straightfoward exposition is crucial to ensuring we don’t twist or misinterpret what it says.
You then argue against what I say even though I’m agreeing with you, and then you then reiterate you want to exposit it faithfully.
Not sure why you keep getting confused by my encouragement to maintain a simple, straightforward, logical approach to the text, especially when in another moment you’re claiming you intend to do just that. lol? =)
Rachel,
Yes, I can see all of that. I believe this is what I was trying to convey in the Multi-dimensional Scroll post. However, this is also the reason I am struggling so much with moving past the sixth seal. I am convinced that the Great Tribulation begins with the Seventh Seal, beyond that, the timing of things in the rest of Revelation is like a 3D minefield. If we try to line everything up then in the order they are given to us then things seem to become confusingly redundant, etc.
I would like to look at your outline of Revelation then. Email me if you don’t mind. Thanks!
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Sorry Wake, that comment was addressed to “Wake and all.”
It wasn’t intended specifically for you. I am trying very hard to stay in bounds here and I know that what we come up with here is going to offend people. I pray that God will give me wisdom and discernment to speak and write the truth alone.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Ah, okay thanks for clarifying Mike. =)
One more comment if i may:
You say: Are the 144,000 Racial Jews or are they simply representative of God’s servants during that period?
Well that depends on whether you want to take it at face value – the simple, clear reading of Scripture – or want to hypothesize about who else it could represent, which is by nature going beyond what is written there and into the hypothetical. It’s very easy to do the latter. If we believe in the perspicuity of Scripture, we believe that a straightforward reading of the text will provide enough clarity to be understandable and if it makes sense, there’s no reason to seek another sense for the meaning of the passage.
It’s interesting to note that nowhere in the Bible are we instructed or encouraged to use the term Israel to refer to anyone other than ethnic Jews – that is either Jacob himself, the nation of Israel, or the subset of Israel that is more specifically the believing Jews (those of faith in the OT, those today who accept Jesus is the Messiah and are partakers in the new covenant like us, and the same in the future).
Many people would LIKE to claim it can be used to mean other things but there is simply no Scriptural instruction to do so and it requires a presupposition to do so. Since you are adamantly opposed to approaching the text with a presupposition, you likely recognize that as well.
There are only one or two passages in the NT that are worded in such a way that they can be misconstrued by someone who approaches the text with the presupposition that the word Israel can be used to relate to something other than Jews. But if approached without that presupposition – and by reading them in their context – those passages do not give any reason for a reinterpretation of the term. In fact those passages have perfectly logical exegeses that do not require jumping through interpretational hoops to come out with such an aberrant rendering.
For example the statement by Paul in Romans 9, “For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;”(NASB) is often stripped of its context and used by some to claim, “See! It’s saying there is a spiritual Israel outside of just the Jews!” But that is not at all what it is saying and anyone reading it in context can see that. It is a simple statement: Not all the descendants of Jacob are elect. There is the physical Israel that is the entire ethnic group that are the descendants of Jacob – the Jews as a whole – and there is a spiritual Israel in the sense that there is a subset of Israel (the descendants of Jacob) that are the elect believing Jews.
Paul goes on to clarify even further in v7-8:
“7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
The straightforward interpretation is quite plain:
Just as not all of Jacob’s descendants are elect, not all of Abraham’s descendants are elect. And in the context we can see that Paul is making the point that through Isaac’s lineage alone will be the descendants who will be named (known by God – elect) to give the lineage of the Messiah (Christ). The children of the promise – the elect – will be through and among those of Isaac’s lineage and subsequently through Jacob’s lineage, not Ishmael or Esau.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”
This is in the midst of a passage where Paul is giving a very poignant defense of the Jewish ancestry and election by God to serve as the lineage of the Messiah, to ensure the Gentile church doesn’t do exactly what so many in the church today sadly do by twisting those very words – namely, despise the Jews. There is a sad irony that one of the most misinterpreted passages is within the very defense Paul gives as he lays the foundation of his argument brought forth over the next two chapters, arguing that God has not forsaken Israel and will still be faithful to bring them into the new covenant relationship not because they deserve it but for His Holy Name because He is faithful to his word (which one can read more about in Ezekiel and the major prophets).
Best regards.
Thanks Wake!
Mike,
Yes, I re-read your multi-dimensional scroll. Very good exegesis. When you say that you are convinced that the great tribulation begins with the seventh seal perhaps you mean the wrath of God begins at the seventh seal? I am clarifying because at the opening of the sixth seal we see the sun turning black and moon turning blood red as described in Joel and Matthew. We know that Jesus comes immediately after the TRIBULATION of these days. So the great tribulation has already been occuring. I believe from the verses in 1 Thessalonians and Malachi that I have listed before, we see God pouring out WRATH on the wicked and giving relief to those who are His at His coming. It would seem that the great tribulation, which is the last 3.5 years, would be the tribulation and that the wrath of God on the wicked begins at the end of the seven years which happens at the seventh seal. (So I am assuming you really mean to say wrath, not tribulation, begins at the seventhseal. At the end of the sixth seal, we see the remnant being sealed to protect them from the wrath of God, which is about to be poured out. After I see the rapture and silence in heaven for half an hour.
Isn’t this an amazing prophecy and book! Amen. Its complexity shows us indeed what an awesome God we serve.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Rachel,
Yes, I meant wrath. What is your definition of Jacob’s Trouble?
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
I believe Jacob’s Trouble is the last “seven” of the 70 “seven’s” which were seven year periods of punishment on the Jews for not honoring the sabbath. I know you are familiar with Jeremiah 30 since that is where Jacob’s Trouble is discussed. Reading the entire chapter and the one after it makes it pretty clear that this time is when all of the earth is against Israel. I believe this is the last seven years of punishment as well as the tribulation. It talks about how she will be punished justly and that those who hurt her will be punished.
‘But all who devour you will be devoured;
all your enemies will go into exile.
Those who plunder you will be plundered;
all who make spoil of you I will despoil.’
It reminds me of the passage in Zechariah where it talks about the horses riding out (I believe these are the apocalyptic horses). It becomes evident that the Lord is almost finished punishing the Jews and now He is becoming very angry with those who hurt her. It sounds very much like the end of the seven years (Jacobs Trouble) and now He is going to pour out His wrath on these nations who went up against her. Zechariah 1:12-17.
“Then the angel of the LORD said, “LORD Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with THEESE SEVENTY YEARS?” So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who talked with me.
Then the angel who was speaking to me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, but I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. I was only a little angry, but they added to the calamity.’
“Therefore, this is what the LORD says: ‘I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt. And the measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem,’ declares the LORD Almighty.
“Proclaim further: This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘My towns will again overflow with prosperity, and the LORD will again comfort Zion and choose Jerusalem.’ ”
Notice how the angel asks how long mercy will be withheld since the Lord has been angry with them for seventy years as if the seventy years is now complete. So far we are still missing the last seven year period but it is quickly approaching.
What are your thoughts?
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Rachel,
The way I learned it back in the early 1990′s was that Jacob’s Trouble was the last 3.5 years of the tribulation or the Great Tribulation. If that is so, then I see us entering that period real soon. However, if it is seven years then when do they start? Or are they already started? Hmmmm.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
Gen 32:28 In this verse God gave Jacob a new name, Israel. which meant prevailing with God and men.
Just by the definition of Israel would that mean us also?
Deborah,
I believe that all of Abraham’s offspring by faith are victoriously in relationship with God and are protected from God’s wrath.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike, Either way whether its the 7 years or the 3.5, I believe we are ‘in it’ now. The countdown has begun the way it looks. And BTW, we also believe the 3.5 is the time of Jacobs trouble and its just right around the corner! If we think things are just plain ‘nuts’ I wonder what our Holy, Perfect, Just Lord thinks??
Amen Paul!
Mike,
I believe the anti-christ will confirm a covenant with many for “seven” years. I believe that will kick off the last seven years. When the anti-christ breaks the covenant at the 3.5 year mark the really horrible events will be the last 3.5 years that immediately follow.
In other words the world peace plan, which will have the jews sacrificing sometime during the first 3.5 years, will “kick-off” the seven years. The anti-christ will appear to be the possible savior of the word and I believe every one will know who he is or about him at the beginning of the seven years. Once he breaks the covenant and stops the sacrifice and declares himself God we will know for sure who he is. It could very well be that the time of Jacobs trouble is the last 3.5 years but we know for sure that the entire 7 year period is the last of the 70 years of punishment for not keeping the sabbaths.
I do not believe that we are currently in the seven years because I believe this will be a very public peace plan that everyone knows about because it will bring glory to the anti-christ. There will be a very real, very well known world-wide public figure initiating this world peace plan from within a 10 leader council. That has not happened yet to my knowledge. I do however believe that the apostacy (falling away) is happening right now and that the seven years is very close. I feel it is right at the door. With all of the change in power world wide and all of the religions world-wide looking for their savior to return it seems to be the season of the anti-christ to make his move. I believe he is alive on the planet now, but I do not know for sure.
Rick Warrens P.E.A.C.E. plan made all my hair stand on end when I heard about it. He is the only one I know of world-wide that has any thing close to a peace plan. (Of course to my knowledge he is not jewish or from the tribe of Dan. I believe he is a false prophet.)
Just to recap, all seven of the last seven years is punishment for the jews. Whether or not the entire seven years or just the last 3.5 years is Jacobs trouble, I cannot say for sure, only that it will all be bad with the last 3.5 the worst the world has known.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Thanks Rachel,
I have been feeling a tug to start studying Daniel. Yes the P.E.A.C.E plan is definitely something we need to look at.
One thing that has always bothered me about the 7 years though is that all references to the Great Tribulation are always 3.5 years not seven.
Got to study.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
If the seven years have already started, who do you believe is the ten member council? Who is the anti-christ who has risen up amoung this councils midst? Who are the three members of this ten member council who anti-christ has killed? What is the peace plan currently in place that has to be broken? Who are the two witnesses that anti-christ will kill? Are they currently causing the rain to cease and killing anyone who opposes them with fire from their mouths, if so whom have they killed and where are they? You must have an idea of who anti-christ is and we know that he will most likely be assasinated and blinded in his right eye and his right hand made useless. (But that probably takes place at the midpoint 3.5). I am sincere in my questions. There was a time when I thought I might know who the anti-christ was. I may know who the false prophet is. Only time will tell. It is too important for me to speculate. But to tell anything you may know of these above events being fulfilled by anyone, anti-christ or not, would give me a clue as to whether or not we have actually entered the seven years or are on the brink of entering the seven years. Please tell me if there is something you know about these things above.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Rachel,
I will respond via email.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
Sorry, I had already posted before reading your response. Yes the great tribulation is 3.5 years only. One of the reasons we know this is because the 3.5 years starts when the anti-christ breaks the covenant he put in place 3.5 years earlier.
Daniel is excellent.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
I have just came upon this site yesterday.. I was wondering to believe the church(that is true believers) will be raptured or do you believe we will go through the tribulation or at least part of it.?