by Mike Ratliff
“Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about: “‘Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’” (Acts 13:38-41 ESV)
We have been looking at Christian faithfulness Vs. unfaithfulness and the fruit of each. We have looked at the difference between Christian Externalism and Christian Internalism and what constitutes worship in Spirit and Truth. We looked at these things from the perspective of Christian authenticity and the culpability of Church leaders who do not disciple their flocks thereby spiritually starving those in their care. The responses to these things was very interesting. It was also very edifying to see some take it deeper by reasoning and praying their way through them. This is what Christians do in mind renewal, which is the engine that transforms Christians into the mature living sacrifices who both bring glory to God and become mature, Christlike, Spirit-filled believers.
However, there were also some who revealed hearts that were hard towards these truths revealing various levels of unbelief. Unbelief is a tragic condition caused by pride and rebellion in those who love their sin more than the truth. There were also some who interpreted the things we discussed about the absolute requirement for personal holiness from the perspective of religiosity. This created tangent discussions pertaining to the duality of our faith.
Some contend that Christianity is all mysticism and not to be understood and grasped through logic or human reason. This is the Gnostic position. Others say that Christianity is a philosophy. This would be the position of what we call Christian liberals. My brethren, our faith is spiritual, but it can be explained and defended through reason using God’s Word. For instance, we teach that no one can come to Christ unless the Father first draws him or her. We teach this because those are our Lord’s own words. (John 6:44) This does cause some consternation in those who refuse to believe while viewing our faith as the most absolute fantasy. However, those who believe and say those things always do so from arguments based on incomplete or faulty data. As we read in Acts 13:38-41 there are those who will never believe even if presented with all the facts. Why won’t they believe? We find the answer to this by remembering what our Lord taught in John 6:44 and comparing it to what Paul taught in Ephesians 2:1-10.
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience– among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved– and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV)
Who believes? Those who believe were formally dead (in unbelief) because their sin and trespasses against God separated them from life that is only available from God. However, He is rich in mercy. By His grace and because of His love for His people, He made them alive, or quickened them, so that their faith is now able to believe God. God saves His people by Grace through faith as a gift, not in any way that could be attributed to those being saved. Why? It is so no one could say that they did any thing to cause God to justify them. Never forget what John 3:16 says.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 ESV)
Who receives eternal life? All those who believe receive it. Is justification and eternal life and salvation speaking of the same thing? Justification is an accounting or legal term that speaks of an account being paid off. God justifies all who believe as He imputes Christ’s righteousness to their account. Eternal life is spiritual life that all who believe receive and it will be fulfilled in eternity in glorification. Salvation speaks of the saved condition of all who believe being freed from the penalty of their sins which condemned to an eternity separated from God.
Tragically, many believers are not discipled well. They fall into the hands of shepherds who are mere hirelings. These folks do not care for the flock. As a result, their flocks are left to fend for themselves. The most tragic part of this, I believe, is that there are plenty of false teachers out there who will gladly teach these hungry souls all about their false doctrines. These sheep not only don’t know how vital it is to pursue personal holiness, when they encounter those who do teach it, it seems unreal to them.
When I preached at a church in Northern Missouri last year to fill in for their Pastor who was having a hip replacement, I encountered some wonderful people who dearly loved the Lord and were hungry for the truth. In between the early service and late service, I attended Sunday School. The discussion in the class led to how hard it was to repent and pray as we ought and how to get the victory over some things. I am a teacher and when I am in that environment I cannot keep my mouth shut. It just comes out. I had everyone turn to Romans 12:1-2 and explained it to them phrase by phrase. We also looked at Ephesians 5-6. The light bulbs went on in these dear folks all over the room. That, of course, is the work of the Holy Spirit. It was then that I realized that there are innumerable Christians all over this world who have no idea how important it is to walk in repentance or how to do it.
Just as God draws people to Christ for salvation, He also draws Christians to repent, to draw near unto Him for cleansing, spiritual growth, and direction. The key to this is humility. God is working in the lives of all who know Him to humble them through all sorts of means. Why? Our salvation gave us eternal life and we are new creations, but we are fleshly, selfish, and prideful along with being uneducated about God and His ways. We don’t know that we can’t repent by will power alone. We don’t know that the commands to die to self, take up our crosses, and follow Jesus are requirements instead of optional. Therefore, God has to humble us. When we reach the end of ourselves we are ready to walk closer with Him. God draws near to the humble for cleansing and spiritual healing, but He shuns the proud.
Are you hungry for God? Are you becoming desperate for victory over your sin(s)? Well, that means God has put that hunger and desperation in you. He is drawing you to Himself. This is what He did with me in 2004. What I did was spend several months seeking Him in more and more ways. I quit watching TV. I cut out entertainment continually replacing that with Bible reading, prayer,and worship. My brethren, God is good. He did a wonderful work in me that has never diminished. He has not turned down the heat on me. Instead, it has grown deeper and more intense. If He had done that with me to this level before 2004 I don’t think I could have taken it. However, I do know now to rejoice in my sufferings, to consider it all joy because God is working in this to cleanse me of my fleshly parts. The more I submit and obey the more He cleanses.
Now, please do not let that scare you away from devoting your life to our wonderful Lord. No, please remember He is very good to His children. He sustains us in even the worst of trials. I would like to leave you all with a bit of encouragement. I know that some of you have doubts. Some of you are still working through moving from self-reliance to total dependence on God. Please read this devotional from Charles Spurgeon from Morning by Morning as you consider your eternal position in Christ. I pray that each of you will turn your hearts to God, seek Him fully, and begin your journey down this narrow and difficult path which is the only one that leads to God in Heaven.
The believer in Christ receives a present justification. Faith does not produce this fruit by-and-by, but now. So far as justification is the result of faith, it is given to the soul in the moment when it closes with Christ, and accepts Him as its all in all. Are they who stand before the throne of God justified now?-so are we, as truly and as clearly justified as they who walk in white and sing melodious praises to celestial harps. The thief upon the cross was justified the moment that he turned the eye of faith to Jesus; and Paul, the aged, after years of service, was not more justified than was the thief with no service at all. We are to-day accepted in the Beloved, to-day absolved from sin, to-day acquitted at the bar of God. Oh! soul-transporting thought! There are some clusters of Eshcol’s vine which we shall not be able to gather till we enter heaven; but this is a bough which runneth over the wall. This is not as the corn of the land, which we can never eat till we cross the Jordan; but this is part of the manna in the wilderness, a portion of our daily nutriment with which God supplies us in our journeying to and fro. We are now-even now pardoned; even now are our sins put away; even now we stand in the sight of God accepted, as though we had never been guilty. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.” There is not a sin in the Book of God, even now, against one of His people. Who dareth to lay anything to their charge? There is neither speck, nor spot, nor wrinkle, nor any such thing remaining upon any one believer in the matter of justification in the sight of the Judge of all the earth. Let present privilege awaken us to present duty, and now, while life lasts, let us spend and be spent for our sweet Lord Jesus.
SDG
What is the purpose of this cleansing??? For if all believers are justified in the sight of our Heavenly Father: why is there a need for personal Holiness???
“There are some clusters of Eshcol’s vine which we shall not be able to gather till we enter heaven; but this is a bough which runneth over the wall.”
Yes and amen. Sadly this kind of experiential devotion to Christ, one that tastes of His goodness and divinity, is being dismantled and abandoned. How many believers today ever read the Word alone and have tears streaming down their cheeks just because the Spirit has revealed things that they cannot even fully speak? How many have been listening to someone preach on the radio and almost had to pull over before they crashed?
Devotion today has been distilled into just thoughts. Listen to meaningless discussions about issues and viewpoints and all the rest, but how often do our ears hear and our mouths speak of the cross? The cross is being gently and not so gently ushered out of Christianity.
This difficult and narrow path also is wide and expansive in its treasure. To gain Christ is not just a great treasure, it is everything. And when we walk by faith through the narrow gate we find an eternity of depth and length and height and width that can never be consumed. And while deceived men compare notes about giants and grsshoppers, we can feast on the milk and honey of Christ Himself.
I grow weary of all the new talk about everything, we as believers must never be so consumed with chasing the fowls that as Abram did we leave the sacrifice which will always be our very life.
I stand this morning before an all holy and all powerful God completely justified in Christ. And it was none of me, and yet I feel such a compulsion to love, serve, and worship Him. Not that I should add to me or my salvation, and not that I would have anything about which to boast, but somehow and someway the HolySpirit would sanctify my life and glorify my Eternal Lord and Savior with my poor deeds. The entire path of being His follower is a glory about which only someone who has the Spirit can understand.
And even then we can really understand that we can never fully understand and that is a truth that is unspeakable and full of glory. I apologize for such a long comment, Mike, but your post and Spurgeon’s words stirred up the Spirit within me and I could not keep silent. God forbid the rocks ever take the place of my lips!!
FH,
My goodness, do you ever read the Bible? We are commanded continually all through it to live lives devoted to God to live Holy and separate from the World as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God.
The cleansing at salvation is a declaration. However, we still have our flesh. God uses our struggle with the flesh to build our faith and sanctify us. So, yes, we must pursue personal holiness.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Amen Rick, preach on brother.
FH – What do you mean “need”? If there is not a “desire” to please Him you do not know Him. I do not want to live for Christ because I NEED to, it’s the LOVE OF CHRIST that COMPELS me!! And what a privilege it is too!!!!!
Good post Mike. Good answers from both you and Rick. I still have to agree with Charlie from yesterday though on answering FH. I hope this person realizes that the Lord will hold him accountable for what he is doing. Play now, pay later.
Amen and thank you Paul and Luann!
FH,
Why would Paul, John, Peter… write to the ‘elect’, the body of Christ, about anything based on your question? For fun? For power?
NO…they wrote them to admonish, rebuke, exhort, guide and to clear up ANY deception that if you say you know Him, but don’t keep His commands, the Truth (Holy Spirit) isn’t “IN” you and you are a LIAR.
Reflect on where the spirit of this desire to ‘just’ be ‘justified’ and continue on in rebellion comes from (sin nature), rebellion from His known will of walking blameless and in garments unspotted.
If someone ‘just’ desire to be ‘saved’, and still desires to walk in sin…they haven’t spiritually drank the very blood of the Perfect One, because if they had…they would not any longer wish to trample His perfect blood under foot of their sin .
Many desired things from Jesus, but many only wanted what He could give and never wanted to give anything to Him because they haven’t been born from above….they were ‘just’ simply the same old man with the same old sinful, selfish desires.
No one will walk ( a continue ) according to the flesh and trample Him willingly if they know Him.
Amen Brent!!
Mr. Hooks response makes me wonder if he listens to the teachings of Joseph Prince.
And about repentance. It reminds me of a marriage. When I got married that was it, I was married. I couldn’t get more married if I did nice things for my husband and I didn’t become less married if I was mean. My marriage was a one time event.
But in that marriage I have the honor of getting to know my husband so that I might love him more and more.
Love is an action word. It means that I find out what he likes and doesn’t like and those things that he doesn’t like, when I do them and find out he doesn’t like them I turn from them and pursue what does please him.
It is an honor and a joy.
I do not please him so that I might be more married that is not possible, I please him so that my life gives evidence that I love him.
But in my walk with the Lord I can not repent if I don’t recognize it as sin, and if I do and I repent and
‘take off” the sin I need to know what to “put on”
Colossians 3 : 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator
So in my desire to love the Lord I do what scripture says… I find out what pleases Him and I make it my goal to please HIm. This is my hearts desire since the Holy Spirit resides in me!
Ephesians 5:10
and find out what pleases the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:9
So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
I love the picture of a servants heart in this verse… I want my life to reflect this also….
2 Samuel 15:21
But Ittai replied to the king, “As surely as the LORD lives, and as my lord the king lives, wherever my lord the king may be, whether it means life or death, there will your servant be.”
Love is humility in action. It is not about my desires it is about God desires! I am honored to be His servant, his friend and his child!
This makes sense to those who have the Spirit and it is foolishness to those who don’t.
Tami
This Blog’s Purpose is to be Spiritual Food for the Suffering Church. It is not designed to be tasty to those who are not in the “church.” It is obvious!
For those of us who like what’s on the menu we say, Thank you Mike. We appreciate your faithfulness to stick to the menu!
Praise God.
Paul and Luann, on May 17th, 2008 at 10:21 am Said:
Play now, Pay later,
I may be taking this out of context but ….
Christ paid it all. Past Present and Future sins. We are all works in process. Paul says I do what I shouldn’t and I dont do what I should (Romans somewhere).
In view of what Christ did for us we yearn to be obedient and for fellowship with him. In that context do we struggle against our sin. We have no indication of the prostitute that washed Jesus’ feet going on to live a perfect life.
Sorry, I have a use of words issue. My problem not yours.
Mike, to what degree do you believe that you are responsible for your own sanctification?
Amen and thank you Tami!
ta,
Our sanctification is synergistic. We cooperate with God in His plan and work in sanctifying (removing us from sin) us. We are commanded to be holy, to be obedient to God, etc. As we do this, God works out our circumstances so that we must exercise our faith in order to be obedient to Him. That is our part.
In Christ
Mike Ratiff
Mike, you stated,
“God is working in the lives of all who know Him to humble them through all sorts of means.”…
Yes, all sorts of means. I have been on a roller coaster ride (I think you may know this) – but God, like He promises, directs our steps…even the ones we do not like – and brings it all to back to Him.
I have found that by these “means” that He uses – it truly is to bring out a purpose, though it may seem far fetched at the time – not understood quite often, but nonetheless, He has a purpose.
He knows each and every heart – where we are in our thoughts, therefore, He is able to use the means necessary to bring out His result – - often through pain and brokenness….of course to be followed by His glory.
I realize I may be off the topic somewhat, please forgive me – it is that I just came through (by the grace of God) a time of God’s purging, and I cannot help but express my gratefulness for the “means” He used – though it was painful – and now I cannot help but look at the “means” and wonder what I was thinking….but God! He did what would bring out His result, so I dare not complain.
To bring it back to the topic….forgiveness and justification to those who Believe – - what bountiful gifts from our Maker! I cannot even comprehend the thought of not wanting to please Him – or to be Holy as He calls us to be – that is flat out denial – total rebellion against the Creator. There is no way you can claim to love (well, you can claim it, but it would be an obvious lie) and follow Christ and not do His commands. He commands us to repent. He commands us to be Holy. If you do not submit to His commands, deny your flesh, your ways and your thoughts – you know not Justification.
Of course no amount of words can change one’s heart – without the Holy Spirit quickening the hearer – I would be a hypocrite at its best to try to sound as if I have never been deceived or in a state of unbelief – for I have been several times – by which God has used to bring His glory! There lies our rest – He is in control – in spite of us!
” IF you love Me, you WILL keep My commandments.”
John 14:15
And Rick – your reply above pricked my heart – what a blessing.
Mike, thanks for this read – and thanks for your Christ-like spirit dealing with me.
“Mike, to what degree do you believe that you are responsible for your own sanctification?”
We are completely responsible. However the process and power is all of Him. Our faith, our cooperation, and our will are involved hence the word “responsible”. And as in most things spiritual, there is an element of mystery, not to God, but to us.
You are very welcome Sherry. Sorry it took me so long to get your comment posted. My wife and I attended a different church this morning and we have been out of the house all day until now. I pray that God will continue to draw you to Him, to sanctify you, and conform you unto the image of His son.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Amen Rick!!!
I think Synergism is kind of a stretch. Its hard to say where man starts and God begins. Everything is of God. Synergism begins to stretch if we take it too far into a territory when man is the one doing the work and we easily become full of ourselves.
Mans job is to repent of his sins in view of Gods Mercy. To continuously turn from his sins. As Martin Luther stated in his first thesis “All of life is repentence”
The potter and the clay analogy is quite a bit different than people understand it. Normally we see the potter and the Clay analogy to say God you are the potter and I am the clay so God do to me whatever you will.
However, the potter and the clay analogy in Jeremiah says that if man repents that God will form something different with the clay than what He originally intended. Read Jeremiah.
In Christ,
No Jon,
Our salvation is monergistic, but our sanctification is synergistic.
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)
We are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That is our part. God sets it all up and works through it to sanctify us.
So, our sanctification is synergistic and that is not a stretch at all.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
hey mike…good o.p. …
Thanks seldom!
Mike,
I guess I only see the term synergism to be an ok “word” to discuss among men but the emphasis needs to be on God. I guess our language is limited in describing and omnipotent, sovereign God. More of God and less of me makes synergism a bad word when there is too much of me.
The Holy Spirit sanctifies me (makes me holy) by bringing me to faith in Christ, so that I might have the blessings of redemption and lead a godly life.” The term “sanctification” is used in two ways, in a more general sense to refer to “the whole work of the Holy Spirit by which He brings us to faith and also enables us to lead a godly life,” and in a more restricted sense to refer to “that part of the Holy Spirit’s work by which He directs and empowers the believer to lead a godly life” (see 1 Cor. 6:11).
Those are probably the words I would use. But your right Justification is monergistic.
Jon, never confuse Justification and Sanctification.
Also Mike your verse
“for it is God who works in you. ”
Thats what I was getting at.
Jon, yes, but we work out our salvation as He works. That is Synergistic.
I might also add that the longer I have been a Christian I realize that sanctification begins and ends at the foot of the Cross and in view of Jesus Christ.
People may not understand this but it makes complete sense to me.
I think sanctification backfires most often when men pursue holiness. It becomes about men. Only in view of Jesus, the Cross, and the Gospel can we avoid that.
9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
Lets boast of our weakness not our Holiness.
In Christ,
Thats a bit outside the idea of “real” synergism Mike. I realize that. After all if we are full of ourselves we arent cooperating with God.
Jon,
No, no, no, no! Real holiness is grounded in humility. So, we MUST pursue it in all humility all wrapped up in Christ. If we do that we boast of nothing. We hate our sin, not love it. We mortify our sins and boast only in our Saviour, never ourselves.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Unto the extent of my understanding: there are two basic purposes for personal Holiness; and they both have to do with relationships. For in regards unto our realtionship with our Heavenly Father: it would be impossible to truly have a very close and personal one with Him if we knew nothing of His ways; and in regards unto relationships with others: sin also gets in the way of that. For sinfulness is harmful: plain and simple; and it is in this regard that Holiness is also most beneficial unto ourselves as individuals.
In any event: we are given opportunities to give our Heavenly Father the full benefit of our doubts. For even if you do not want to believe that we did not have to be born into this world as we naturally are in order for us to be able to spend all of eternity with our Heavenly Father in His Kingdom of Heaven as heirs unto all that is His in glory: there is the matter of why we must remain in this world after we come to accept Christ Jesus as our own personal Lord and Savior that should not be ignored. For it truly is as it is written: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. {Romans 8:29-20 NIV}
Hence: the matter of being transformed into His likeness that should also be addressed. For if it is possible for us to changed in a twinkling of an eye at the end of our time as a part of this world {1 Corinthians 15:51-53}: then it cannot be impossible for this to happen beforehand; and I am not talking about just the transformation of our bodies, neither {1 John 3:2}.
As in regards unto synergism: where do we want the line drawn between where our Heavenly Father ends and we begin??? You and your readers might find the debate in the comments section of this post to be of interest.
Your right Mike. However, I guess what I am trying to say is that humility can be just a word we use in our sanctification if we are honest with ourselves.
I man you have to admit it…. I am probably the most humble person on this BLOG 8-).
This is probably more of a discussion if we ever meet since there are a lot of thoughts about how the pharisees thought they had the fullness of truth and saw themselves as more sanctified than the rest of people, etc. They werent all that different from any of us “religious” people.
The main point I am trying to make is that living in view of Gods Mercy and the Cross is absolutely necessary for sanctification to occur and for “real” humility to be present. Let me restate what I said in another BLOG.
“The truth of the Gospel is the principle article of all Christian doctrine….Most necessary is it that we know this article well, teach it to others, and beat it into their heads continually.” (on Gal.2:14f) The gospel is not easily comprehended. Paul says that thegospel only does its renewing work in us as we understand it in all its truth. All of us, to some degree live around the truth of the gospel but do not “get” it. So the key to continual and deeper spiritual renewal and revival is the continual rediscovery of the gospel. A stage of renewal is always the discovery of a new implication or application of the gospel–seeing more of its truth.
The word renewing applies to both our justification and our sanctification processes. Which is why we need this constant re-discovery of the Gospel message so we dont let the ideas of men slip into our sanctification process.
I still stand by these words. If you use other terminology I think we get lost in false humility.
The Holy Spirit sanctifies me (makes me holy) by bringing me to faith in Christ, so that I might have the blessings of redemption and lead a godly life.” The term “sanctification” is used in two ways, in a more general sense to refer to “the whole work of the Holy Spirit by which He brings us to faith and also enables us to lead a godly life,” and in a more restricted sense to refer to “that part of the Holy Spirit’s work by which He directs and empowers the believer to lead a godly life” (see 1 Cor. 6:11).
Mike,
also Paul said he boasts of his weakness so that Christ could be shown more fully. This is a necessary part of humility.
I am going to stand by the idea that synergism is too simple of word to describe the non-linear sanctification process.
More of God and less of me.
Once again my problem with a word … not yours. Engineer by trade makes me break all the pieces down into their smallest components.
Snctification just does not sum up the idea of sanctification for me I guess. However, If I could find a phrase to sum up the sanctification process it would be:
“Finding my identity more deeply in the person of Jesus Christ”
http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/finding-yourself-in-christ/
Synergism just does not sum up the idea of sanctification for me I guess. However, If I could find a phrase to sum up the sanctification process it would be:
“Finding my identity more deeply in the person of Jesus Christ”
http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/finding-yourself-in-christ/
By they way one of my favorite reformed resources I use outside of scripture.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2136
Also, Mike you might find this one interesting:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242
FH and Jon,
You both have the same problem so I will address you together. Personal Holiness is commanded and it is about ALL parts of our lives not just in relationships, but including our thoughts, our intentions, our motives, our actions, etc. Everything. We are called to be holy at all times in all situations. Our part is to obey God, to draw near unto HIm and abide in Christ. His part is to give us the joy to do these things by His grace.
We are justified monergistically. That is God’s work alone. We are sanctified synergistically because we work with God in it.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Another FAQ on Presbyterian vs LCMS that you might find interesting.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2241
Jon,
So, are you telling me that your understanding of the Gospel and the Bible from the lcms is what I must teach and preach here or must conform to your understanding of theology Jon? I use the Bible for my understanding of these things.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
I think we have some different histories on this one Mike. Better left for a one on one discussion. I dont disagree with anything you said Mike. I was referring to common ailments in pursuing sanctification.
I tend to see the most common ailment of the Church to be the idea that we are justified by Grace and the Cross and then we leave the cross behind for a more mature “thing” Then we start resting on man sanctifying himself and start proclaiming a Chrisless Christianity.
The bible itself does not spend much time separating the ideas of justification and sanctification but makes it a part of the same whole. However, men in their manliness spend ooodles of hours separating it.
We are saved by faith and faith alone and faith without works is dead but true faith is never alone. If you understand item #1 in the link below (and above) you will probably understand the differences in how you and I see things.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2241
Jon,
Have you ever read the book of Hebrews? Have you studied it? It says in it in plan language that we are to do the very thing you seem to be against. Here is the passage specifically.
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. (Hebrews 6:1-3 ESV)
What is the writer of Hebrews telling us here Jon? I don’t think we ever leave behind our dependance on the cross and the atonement, but we must move on to maturity (personal holiness).
Also, have you read John Owen? I suggest you get his little book “The Mortification of Sin.
I agree that this discussion would be better served offline.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
No, no, no! Its just a resource. Take it or leave but its ok to understand the differences the various denominations have
Also, read item 4 on the above link about the authority of scripture.
Jon,
I don’t know what item 4 is talking about as it pertains to human reason. Here is one of our understandings of our salvation from the Westminster Confession.
“By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein; and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatening, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. But the principle acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.”
So, I don’t see what the item is referring to all.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike,
Lets move on to Hebrews 7. The cross and the Gospel are always central to the thinkology of the writers in the New Testament
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’ “[b] 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Give Mike a high 5,
In Christ,
High five jon.
Yes, best left for another day … but if you read both links above the LCMS belives a 5 point TULIP model as defined by the traditional calvinistic Church is partially because the LCMS belives that the Calvinistic Church also has placed human reason alongside scripture to evolve the 5 point TULIP model they way they have. If you read both you might understand why the LCMS think this way.
Not an attack. Just a statement of how different denominations see themselves.
The Lutheran Churches believes that some ideas are paradoxical so rather the compromising these ideas they leave them as Mystery and just let scripture stand on its own.
I am also not an LCMS person but I tend to be more Luther-esque than Calvinist… although I belong to a Calvinistic Church. I tend to see John Calvin and John Piper as a pretty good theologians but I consider Martin Luther as a brilliant thinkologist who questioned the thinkology of men… much like Paul did.
(given John Piper way too much airtime in my life listening to Sermons and reading his books)
I should say the LCMS church not all Churches. Most Lutheran Churches are struggling. The LCMS and maybe WELS are probably the only true Lutheran Church left standing today doctrinally.
Although I have found some Presbytyerian Churches starting to get back to a “Theology of the Cross” and a proper emphasis on reformed doctrine through the Cross.
Jon,
I am calvinistic (small c) like Spurgeon and Piper. I attended an OPC church yesterday for the first time. I loved it. But you know, election, etc. was never brought up. It was all about the Gospel and Grace and our role in living for God’s glory alone. The reason I did this was that the Reformed Baptist churches around here are few and far between. We have been going to one for about a year now, but neither my wife nor I have believed that God wanted us to officially join them. Both churches preach the Word, but the OPC church’s sermons are more Biblically based. Perhaps the Baptist Church’s problem stemmed more from the pastor working on his doctorate. He preached through his dissertation for nearly a year. It just got to be too much. We went to the OPC church because we were invited by one of the elders.
It is interesting when someone comes here and tries to catagorize what denominational flavor we are. The best one I saw was a Lutheran fellow saying that we were Bapterian or Presbist. I will take either.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike I believe you are saying that we need to view our sanctification as synergistic because we are called to love God and obey…..
But we understand by faith that even our sanctification is monergistic.
Again understanding that we serve an unfathomable GOD not a fathomable god.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
John 15: 5″I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
1 Thess. 5: 23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
Tami
Tami,
The reason I believe or conceptualize our sanctification as synergistic is that we are called to decide or obey or humble ourselves, etc, as you said. That is what I mean. Yes our sanctification is in His hands, not ours. I don’t decide the plan, He does. I must respond though. If we simply say that it’s all in His hands and then don’t get into the Word or pray or obey etc., what happens?
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
rebellion I will take credit for… but to be in the word, to pray, to obey… these things I only do because of He who is in me. This is not possible on my own. To rebel and disobey that is me, to obey, that is God’s power alone! It might seen like me – but then it would also be the fruit of me not the fruit of the spirit.
To obey, to be humble, to read the Word, pray… We can do these things in human strength but then they are merely external, the internal is only through His power and to His glory.
Tami
Tami,
This is from a book by James Boice and Philip Ryken titled The Doctrines of Grace. I take this from page 152.
This is my stance on this as well. Yes, it is God’s working in us, but we must still work and it is because of His working in us that we even want to or are able to do. However, if we don’t then, as you said, we are in rebellion.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Be assured that it is the same with sanctification as it is with salvation. For no one can come unto Christ unless they be drawn by our Heavenly Father, nor can they be conformed into His likeness without the power of His Holy Spirit; and neither can anyone be saved from eternal damnation without accepting Christ Jesus as their own personal Lord and Savior, nor will they be conformed into His likeness unwillingly.
FH,
“nor will they be conformed into His likeness unwillingly”
So what makes them willing?
Of course we know that it is the fact that God works in us that makes us willing.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
The only issue with mortification of sin is people use it to mortify other peoples sin as opposed to their own sin. Very common. We dont see the log in our own eye but we see twigs in other peoples eyes.
And who here is doing that Jeff? We are to judge ourselves or God will judge us. So, are you going to mortify your sins or wait for God to judge you? Your choice.