by Mike Ratliff
If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones, for if you wield your tool on it you profane it. (Exodus 20:25 ESV)
The focus of our ministries, whether it is all on God, His purposes, and His ways or whether it is on men or self, is also what marks whether what we are doing is God glorifying or merely another profane work of the flesh. The daily walk of the regenerate believer is a ministry. How we deal with all those with whom we interact each day is part of our ministries. Therefore, all who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour have a ministry. What we must do is examine our walks to see if we are profaning the altar of God with the ways of the flesh or whether we are obediently ministering as led by the Spirit.
When we see churches use entertainment to attract people to them, even to the point of substituting secular music for praise and worship, we are witnessing the human touch, the encroachment of what is of the flesh into what should be treated as sacred.
I used to be a Deacon in a church in another state that went Purpose Driven in the early 1990’s. The last Easter I was a member of that church, we rented the local High School auditorium because ours was not big enough for the expected “crowd” that our pastors anticipated after their big marketing push. They advertised on TV. They ran full page ads in the local newspapers. They ran ads on the radio, including secular radio stations.
Many of our Deacons were given the duty of parking cars. It was a big deal. I’m not sure what I was expecting to happen that Sunday. The band on the stage played very modern music with a light show. Then the pastor preached a very short message that was more of an invitation to visit our church than the gospel. When he was done preaching, the bad played the closing song. I usually worked down front to assist those who came forward at the invitation. However, we were told to not come forward that Sunday. The service closed with the band playing the song “Desperado” by the Eagles as people filed out. I felt as if I was in the Twilight Zone.
Some have told me that they do not like expository preaching. They get bored. Their minds wander. If the “music” is too traditional then that just compounds the problem for them. Now, what are they really saying through this? Aren’t they demanding that they be entertained? Television, movies, video games, et cetera have all overloaded the part of our brains that deals with pleasure. We have become overloaded with sensory inputs. Now those things that used to hold our interest seem drab and boring and we find ourselves wanting to get away from whatever is causing this so we can get back to feeding our brains what they want. The problem is that once this cycle starts it is very hard to break away from the sensational in order to hear the profound.
If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones, for if you wield your tool on it you profane it. (Exodus 20:25 ESV)
In the Exodus God gave the command that the altars constructed by the Israelites must be built of unhewn stones. Why? It was to be left untouched by human skill or labor. There must be no trace of the works of the flesh in the worship of God. Our problem is that we consider ourselves to be wise, but human wisdom delights in trimming and arranging the doctrines of the cross into some form of “human system.” Of course, this introduces artificiality into our ministries. We perceive that this makes them more friendly with the depraved tastes of the fallen nature.
However, instead of improving the gospel, the wielding of the tools of man pollutes it. This changes it into “another gospel” void of the truth of God. This editing of the gospel actually defiles it and this brings forth polluted results. Pride is the culprit here. I once wrote a very popular article on evangelism. It was one of the highest hit posts I have ever written. However, there was one comment I received that day that still seems to come to mind at least once a week. The article was replete with the truth that it is God who saves people, not us, nor our efforts. However, the comment that struck a nerve with me that day went something like this, “Isn’t it wonderful that we can ask God to participate in our work of evangelism?” The tone of the comment struck me hard because no one else even went close to that “topic.” It was mostly praise and worship of our wonderful God and Saviour and Lord. That comment brought me up cold.
My brethren, we are God’s servants. We don’t give Him access or rights to our ministries like we are the ones in control. No, we are servants who obey our master and Lord. The alternative is the product of a proud heart. Those ministering like that one who made that comment must have their hand in the justification of the soul before God. The more I study the Word of God the more I see clearly what a fallacy that is. We simply live the Word, preach the Word, and pray for all who hear. God does the rest. He may use us to share the truth and pray with new believers, but He is the one who saves, not us. It is the Holy Spirit who prepares the heart to receive Christ, not us.
In our own walks we often trust in our own works and abilities rather than falling upon the rock of Christ as the spiritually helpless ones we are. Unless we do see the utter spiritual bankruptcy of the flesh and seek the only recourse, to be Spirit-filled, then we are doing no better than profaning the divine altar with a graving tool.
In my own case, I have learned the hard way that I am of no use to God unless I am a helpless wretch before Him. If I try to serve Him with my own “wisdom” and “learning” and “abilities” I soon find myself bitter and angry and frustrated and in a huge dry spell creatively. However, when I give up my rights to this ministry and seek only to be obedient while remaining in the background through it all does God send the joy and direction. I pray that God will continue to use this ministry and that I will keep my meddling hands off of it.
The Lord alone must be exalted in the work of atonement. There must not be one mark of man’s graving tool upon it. When men do edit the gospel they are messing with blasphemy. They seek to add to it or improve upon it. Of course, this editing is intended to please more people. The gospel is the call to the narrow, hard to find gate which opens to a narrow, difficult path. It is not a resort or wide highway traveled upon in a limousine. No, we must cast down these false versions of the gospel and preach the truth. We must call all to fall upon their knees in humble supplication before the altar of the Lord Jesus Christ, to rest in Him alone.
Instead of trying to fix and align God’s truth and doctrine according to our own likes and preferences, which is irreverence and unbelief, let us repent of doing so. Let us determine to intentionally receive truth as we find it, rejoice that the true doctrines of our Lord Jesus Christ are unhewn stones, which are the only ones fit to build an altar for our Lord.
Soli Deo Gloria
Semi-pelagianism. Its everywhere. Arminanism, synergism is the norm. If you are monergistic they think your crazy. And some people just down right hate Calvinists. I like what someone posted over on CRN reguarding Luthers comment about ‘faith’. We need to use that for wallpaper in our churches today
Good post Mike. We may be the underdogs in this world we live in, but the Lord sees it differently.
Amen Paul and Luann, and thank you. – Mike Ratliff
What is pelgianism? I can’t even say it.
Hold on…. Let me try to pronounce it.
PUH- LAY-GEE–…….uhh.
I give up. How do I say that word? Is that some kind of sickness or a mythological city from the Odyssey?
tee hee hee
Good post. I also learn, be it ever so slowly, to keep my chisel in the tool box.
Great post! The verse you quoted is very true. The more man tries to improve on the word of God the more it gets distorted.
Pingback: Profaning the Altar - Reformata
Pelagianism. I looked it up. It sounds like the gospel of self -empowerment (Joel Osteen). Motivational speakerism.
Just another heresy though.
Thanks jfranklin, as will I.
Thanks BB!
Josh,
Yes Pelagianism is heretical. It actually denies the necessity of the atonement.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Really thought-provoking article, very good.
Quoting you here, – - – “However, the comment that struck a nerve with me that day went something like this, “Isn’t it wonderful that we can ask God to participate in our work of evangelism?” The tone of the comment struck me hard because no one else even went close to that “topic.” It was mostly praise and worship of our wonderful God and Saviour and Lord. That comment brought me up cold.” – - – I had to reread this a number of times, and I would have been interested in the full context of the rest of the commenter’s statements. I found the comment of question to border on an almost sarcastic tone, one that seemed to support this article now.
We design the building, design the program, design the worship, smash or filthy hands all over a work, and then expect God to bless it and be satisfied. NOT!
Really enjoy the education and insight, for you definitely do edify the body with every word spoken! Take care ~
Thanks Sarah. Your insight here is very precise. I struggled with how to phrase that incident. That was many months ago and it still comes to mind nearly every day. I believe God is reminding me to keep my ‘filthy hands’ off of His work.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Sorry if this is a little off the topic but I have always been intrigued by this quote from Exodus, and I mean in the literal sense. There of all early stone monuments in the UK (over 1,000 prehistoric stone settings) I think only Stonehenge has any substantial number of worked stones. Yet interesting what may the earliest Stonehenge stone, the ‘Heelstone’ as unworked. We may be looking at c 3000 BC for its veneration, the main structure added some 500 years later. There are other early ‘unworked’ stones in the area which were also revered.
Josh, And semi pelagianism is just a tad bit more decieving than pelagianism. With whats an epidemic now is the semi. It looks and sounds real good. Just enough to do a really convincing heresy. Sounds like its straight from the pit of hell to us. Its a works-grace gospel, not a grace-works gospel. All man made and not an ounce of God in it. Even though with semi-p they include the Lord……..barely and then just a name. You know, like the delusion that has been sent to beleive the lie. Our Lord said, (paraphrased) Its going to look SO convincing, that it will try to even fool My elect. Thank God He has given us the eye salve to see this for what it really is. It is the scarlet harlot, it is the whore of Babylon and its all over the world now, not just in certain cities and etc. The tares are being bundled by the droves! I still say its 11:59. We also thank our Lord for men like Mike who can ‘sharpen our iron’ because for the most part the only thing out there is plastic butter knives at best.
Mike,
Excellent post brother, and so very true. As a former “church staff member” I can remember sitting in many brainstorming sessions where the whole goal was to figure out how to get people into the church. The answers offered were never centered around exalting Christ or equipping the saints to do the work of the ministery, they always centered around how we could be more entertaining, more “seeker sensitive.”
Recently, a friend of mine started a church. As we were discussing it I asked him what he was doing at the time in his journey in planting the church. His answer was–”Buidling brand awareness.”
I felt sick.
Thanks Joe,! Your friend’s answer makes me feel sick as well.
Paul and Luann,
You are right about the delusion. The whole self empowerment formulas ad to the delusion. Self empowerment ignores the fact that God is sovereign in all affairs. We do not know what tomorrow will be like. Self empowerment also forgets that Christians should stay use the big ‘IF,’ in “if it be thy will Lord.”
I keep this verse in my mind.
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year and trade and make a profit”- yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is a sin. James 2: 13-17 ESV
I often think about the times that I save money, and then a freak accident or some car trouble comes from no where. I have learned not to assume that tomorrow will be the same as before. Troubles are just a fact of life, for both the saved and the unsaved.
The problem with today’s so-called ‘church’ is they have men (Senior Pastors, Associate Pastors: un-biblical terms, positions and titles by the way) as “Head of the Church” which by default, is an attempt to usurp authority from the only and true “Head of the Church” : Jesus, who purchased the “church” (Ekklesia) with His blood.
That is why a so-called ‘church’ can even “go Purpose Driven”, they listen to the voice of another, a “hireling”,
LITERALLY.
Thanks for the exhortation Mike.
As you know I am a bit different on some topics. I believe their is a pharisee in all of us always trying to get out and the attitudes of the pharisees is still a subtle but deadly influence on the Church.
I tend to like creative ways to get people into Church as long as you dont compromise scripture. These creative ways should never compromise scripture at the pulpit.
Read Below from Matthew 23
13″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
The Gospel needs to be preached and few will enter the door to heaven but I think God allows freedom in wayys to get people into the door of the Church.
I dont want to be seen as blocking the doorway into heaven.
Jon,
Okay, here is the challenge. Show us how you could “be creative” to get people to hear the Gospel without appealing to their flesh. Any appeal to the flesh is not gospel preaching. Your logic is full of holes son. How is it pharisaical to not compromise with the world and its ways? The Gospel is not editable.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Very thought provoking for me. I have been seeing signs of this in my church community, although not as blatant. However, the trend seems to be this direction. Thanks for posting.
You are very welcome Brent!
dl,
God has opened you eyes our you could not see this. You need to pray for your church.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
The gospel is the way the Lord saves people. The gospel and just the gospel. Nothing fancy, just the gospel and only the gospel. Thats how He does it, period.
Spadinofamily,
Did you want to get people to attend church or to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus for their salvation? Which do you want?
Enticing is not a Biblical method of evangelism. Harlots like to entice. Jesus is a consuming fire. His true church is not a harlot.
Shmoozing the sinner into salvation doesn’t work.
Enticing produces false converts. Attendance numbers add to the confusion. Hence, the name Babylon.. a seducing spirit.
Perhaps once you have lured them in the way you want, then your social club will be praised by the world. You may even get to be on the front page of Time magazine as the world’s most popular preacher and favorite church. The church everybody loves and doesn’t convict. Just what Satan loves.
Then the twenty thousand members die and face the judgment because you didn’t want to inconvenience them or offend them with words like, “Repent, sin, hell, judgment, or wrath.” How will you stand before the Lord then? Would you even??
Spadinofamily,
The Lord does not always have an open ear to the unrepentant sinner. If you want to ‘unblock’ the door to heaven, then you must do it correctly by telling the unrepentant sinner to repent. Anything else is of the flesh or a compromise of the truth. Your method of enticing the sinner into salvation does not work. In fact, it postpones the sinner’s sorrow by appeasing his flesh.
ummm I think I said no compromising on the pulpit. Preach that all are not worthy and that Christ died for us.
Anyhow, I knew this one would get a rise but I will never believe that cultural relevance = sin = compromise. Its just not true! Many people thought the new hymns of Luther were blasphemy and Luther translating the bible into German would be the end of the Church. The reformers condemned gergorian chant in the Church and for that I am very thankful. IF we could have thrown out organs too that would have been a plus!
Dont get me wrong many people that engage in cultural relevance can be compromising individuals but lets not broadbush and caricaturize all people into the nice easy packages we like to place them in.
Josh, in your last sentence I dont disagree with you but read 1 John 4:16-21. You left out a “portion” of what the Gospel means and one part of Gods character. I yearn for a Church that does not have to apologize for preaching either side of Gods character.
And, only in Christ do I even have any chance of being before the Lord.
Jon
This is half joke and half serious Mike… please take it that way.
The Gospel is not editable but it needs to be edible. It needs to be fed to everyone although all may not like the taste of it.
Jon
As I was considering the idea of profaning the alter this morning I was thinking about the circumcists in Galatians. They denied the all sufficiency of Christ. Basically, have a Christ + kind of scenarion.
Obviously, the flashpoint today is not circumcision over Christ + scenarios. We tend to call it the religion of do, etc.
I had to comment on it this morning in my BLOG on the all sufficiency of Christ.
http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/jesus-christ-the-full-meal-deal/
Spadinofamily,
Here is your own admission.
“The gospel is not editable but it needs to be edible….. ”
It is edible. You see it as something one cannot eat, unless you put your finishing touch on it. Man’s nature just doesn’t want to eat it, so it is not the gospel which needs your finishing touch. It is man’s nature which strives with the gospel.
Godly sorrow produces repentance. If you try to add your creative flare or finishing touch to it, you risk compromise or desecration. Present it as is and let God convict men of their sins. Don’t sell them the gospel packaged the way you like it. That is the same as merchandising Christ. The worst thing you can do to the unrepentant sinner is to appease his carnal nature and discourage him from understanding God’s severity or his sovereignty.
The book of Proverbs talks about a strange woman (an adulteress) who lures men into her house by using smooth words. The passer bys are easy prey to her because her lips drip smooth words sweet as honeycomb. Little do the passer bys know that going into her house is a trap or a path which leads to Sheol. Apply that to the harlot church and pastors who try to entice the unsaved into the church instead of preaching the gospel. These are success driven formulas based on worldly standards. NOT THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL WHICH PRODUCES REPENTANCE. Even the pastors ‘woo’ the unsaved with their smooth speeches which are unoffensive and tickle the ears. The world loves a church which is led by a pastor who does not convict men of their sins. So does Satan.
Spadinofamily,
I have seen your blog and how you respond to enemies of the gospel. I haven’t seen you disagree with them (as you should if you want to save them.) You appease them because you do not directly defend the gospel. Instead, you try to find a way that you can agree with them on something. What in the world is that?
The Gospel is both pleasing and displeasing Josh. Read Ephesians 3:18-20. To be angling too much one way is not striving for as much truth as scripture iteself provides.
Sola scriptura, sola fide, sola Christus!
Jon,
You said, “To be angling too much one way is not striving for as much truth as scripture iteself provides.” What do you mean by this? Who is doing that? Any attempt to make the Gospel more appitizing by diluting it is SIN!
Also, there are 5 solas.
Sola scritpura
Sola gracia
Sole fide
Solus Christus
Soli Deo Gloria
Why is this important? If you ignore the second and fifth one then you are placing God outside of what is 100% His work. Utter foolishness.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Mike, I think the Gospel can be diluted in more than one way is what I was saying. One way is not proclaiming our complete and total depravity (not talking about sin)… and the other way is not FULLY proclaiming Ephesians in how deep and high and wide is the love of Christ. As people (and sinners) to make a point we usually take sides is all I was trying to say.
Sorry about missing two… I tend to comment inbetween watching my testing at work.
JS
Spadinofamily,
Is the love of Christ so deep and high and wide that he is willing to compromise truth? Is it so deep and high and wide that sin is really no big deal?
Is it so deep and high and wide that men can enter heaven without repentance? How then is it possible for the gospel to convict men of sin if you put a spin on it and present it in such a way that you think the world will love it and welcome it with open arms?
The way is narrow. If you want the world to roll out a red carpet and fall at your feet, then keep on walking through the wide gate. Don’t hold anything or anyone accountable to scripture. Don’t be a fundamentalist Christian. Just focus on getting the numbers up. Your worldly formula for converting the soul will give you fame and friendship with the world. You will fit right in.
Spadinofamily,
If you don’t like the idea of convicting men of their sins, then what kind of gospel are you reading? Seriously Spadinofamily… the gospel will convict men of their sins just as it is (as long as you don’t try to tweek it with your finishing touch).
The righteous are as bold as a lion. God is not pleased when men shrink away.
Josh your putting words in my mouth. I have never proclaimed to say Churches should be about numbers. And I don’t find myself shrinking. I do, however, believe in the Great Commission of scripture and proclaiming it to everyone — although it may not be palletable to everyone.
And I am obviously not out to win a popularity contest here.or to have any fame or fortune in what I proclaim.
Sorry if you find me offensive.
JS
Spadinofamily,
I don’t find you offensive. Just deceived.
Spadinofamily,
I saw also that you endorse Marc Driscoll on your blogroll. He is the cussing preacher. Are you aware of that?
I am aware that he openly acknowledges his sin on the pulpit…. but he calls it sin and works to overcome it.
Spadinofamily,
Although Driscoll denounces the Emergents, he still practices contemplative spirituality. That is a whole new can of worms. I would recommend doing some ‘testing’ on this subject, for yourself . Don’t believe me. Research it yourself.
When I was a younger Christian I read some of Marc Driscol’s books. I saw a lot of marketing, but no food. I have seen him preach, and I am very cautious of preachers who strive to be ‘cool’ or who cannot give simple yes or no answers when challenged by the world. Call me old fashioned, but the devil tattoos, body piercing, and body defilement generally indicate some form of rebellion, so with that in mind, I still believe that the body is the Lord’s temple….not to be defiled with graffiti.
We are called to be holy and seperate. The church should never lower its standards to satisfy the world, with its ideas of how the church should function. The pastor is not the head of the church, it is Christ. Holiness is a command and a way of life, which is righteousness…… not an extra curricular activity, like the contemplative crowd will have you believe.
It gives me great joy to hear a teacher preach the crucified life. That man is usually a broken individual, who has died to the world with all of its traps and snares. He is no stranger to hardship. He doesn’t shun those who are passing through the fire, but he rejoices because he has found someone who is familiar with long suffering. Fellow sufferers have common ground with Christ as well as each other. Struggle and hardship actually strengthen the body of Christ as well as mature it.
Today’s popular preachers strive to be ‘cool’ or ‘hip’ and even relevant to the world. That is not the standard we are commanded to uphold. You know the drill, the best selling books based on man made formulas are not of the Lord.
Contemplative spirituality is a mix of pantheism (God is all) and panantheism (God is in all). I have seen Driscoll’s sermon on salvation. He teaches that God is already in the unregenerate. Rick Warren does the same thing. These kinds of errors should be a red flag, Spadinofamily. They are FUNDAMENTALLY incorrect and dangerous.
What I like about Driscoll is his centrality of the Gospel and his be “real about sin” approach that its in all of us. Like most of the Church which has a large case of 3rdpersonitus about sin. Sin is alway in the 3rd person. Its all about your sin, not mine in other words. Lets spend 90% of our time talking about the sin out there so I dont have to talk about my own sin.
I think the Church can learn from people like this.
http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/one-of-my-main-issues-the-9010-rule/
We have an epidemic of church goers and preachers that want to crucify sin are still living hidden lives of sin and silent desperation trying to escape sin. They crucify it publically because after all its the political correct thing “to be in the truth”.
I was honest in my BLOG if you read enough Josh that Driscoll was new to me and I was just starting to listen to him. I actually got his name for the first time from this BLOG less than 6 weeks ago.
Theres a lot of truth that gets twisted when the Gospel and Jesus Christ no longer becomes central to how you interpret scripture. The pharisees were experts at majoring in the minors. I am sure they used the words truth and obedience a lot but yet were not real about their sin and how deep their need was for a savior.
Jon
Jon,
That is nothing but a smokescreen and an excuse to ignore the facts. In scripture we are called to repent. Forget this third person nonsense. That is just an excuse to not listen to the truth. No one is claiming they are not sinners. What I do is what Paul did in his epistles. I encourage everyone to examine themselves and repent of what God shows them. That is not being self-righteous. That is Biblical Jon and I will not back off of that no matter how much people who love their sin want to whine about it. Also, we are not where God wants us if we cling to our sinfulness. We have to more forward with Him in our repentance. We are called to be Holy and Righteous Jon.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Josh,
My sense is one of the differences we might have is not theological or even biblical discernment. You probably consider my centrality of the Gospel approach just baby food to your higher truth approach but thats ok.
What I think you want to do is that you want to tell people about the truth of their sin. I want the same thing except I want sincerity over our sin and the depth of our sin first and foremost.
However, the MO (mode of operation) of these two approaches are quite different. These two approaches have no variability theologically. One is outside in theology and the other allows trusting God to change us from the inside out. I hope my approach allows Christians to come together to work on removing the sin in our lives.
One approach is “mostly’ ineffective in my opinion and the other changes lives…. and I have some personal stories on this that I wont share here.
I find discussions about watered down theology very tiring and overused by Christians that dont want to see the sin in their own lives. This kind of overt talk that criticizes others without seeing the sin in our own lives is as much sin as anything else.
Since I tend to keep this centrality of the Gospel approach so close to me many people that want to overuse the word truth see me as immature or “deceived” or maybe just a baby Christian. Thats ok, I keep it central for a very important reason.
Hanging around with Christians that want to talk about being in the truth more than living the truth is the reason I have this centrality of the Gospel approach to how I see all other scripture. It keeps me from not following the same path as them.
I also think it mirrors the ministry of Paul and Martin Luther both of which I admire
JS
Jon,
Here is passage from Paul: When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. (1 Corinthians 13:11 ESV)
This is from a section of 1 Cor. 13 that describes how we should emulate God’s love in our relationships. It also says that even though we see through a glass darkly, we MUST move on from the infantile concept of God and His ways and GROW UP.
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. (Hebrews 6:1-3 ESV)
Jon, I think I understand what you are saying, but you cannot remain in the baby form of Christianity and move forward with God at the same time. It is God who draws us to maturity and I find it offensive when someone tries to keep Christians from growing in Christlikeness.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
I understand where your coming from Mike! 8-).
JS
It may be dull to some, it may be mundane, but the way the Lord does it is His gospel. Evangalism should strickly be the gospel. Period. People who are in church are there to worship and sing praises to our Lord. We are to grow in and out of church. We are to be in fellowship with other like minded believers at church. To evangalise should be outside the church doors. The ones on the inside are suppose to be saved already and there to worship corprately. Thats the way I have always seen it should be. That may not set well with some but its the way it should be. Why would you bring unbelievers inside a REAL true worship service where they don’t understand a thing that is going on? The way I see it, they get ‘saved’ outside the church doors, THEN bring them to church and introduce them to what is going on and why. Its a total abomination to me to have cussing preachers and all the false garbage that is going on in the ‘churches’ (if you can even call them that) now a days. That is NOT the place to do all of that garbage. Take it outside the Lords house and in the streets. Inside the church should be saved praise and worshipers who are atleast past the baby food stage and on some sort of meat, who understand they are there to worship and sing praises to our Lord. Its suppose to be His house for cryin out loud!!!
Jon,
I stongly suggest you go to this site and read what is suppose to be happening IN churches and by Who. This is something that is totally lacking in 99.5% of the churches today. Read part 1, 2, &3 of the 5 parts.
http://www.sfpulpit.com/
I glanced it over and will bookmark to read some other day.
Thanks!
The story of my Church: Two years ago our Pastor came out (on his own) to openly acknowledge his issues with pornography …. and how he wanted to overcome. After 6 weeks at some special counseling location it was decided with the BOE that he was not the right guy going forward for our Church… for reasons more than just his issue with pornogrpahy — or so they told us. The pastor now works at faithful and true ministries counseling people with the same types of problems. I am very thankful he remains in ministry.
I think I said in my BLOG that I would keep Driscoll there until considered him a heretic. At this point I don’t so I have a couple of short videos there of him presenting some information I agree with. IF I do find him a heretic I will delete his posts.
However, Mark Driscoll is honest about a rough upbringing and dealing with his issues.I do appreciate that even though I. like you, do not appreciate his swearing and consider it not aligned with what God wants.
JS
You do realize the Mars Hill Church in the link you sent is not the same Mars Hill Church of Marks.
Mark’s Church is in Seattle.
IF you want to watch some video of Mark Driscolls I recommend going to John Pipers website http://www.desiringgod.com
John Piper is not my favorite author to read… but John is a guy that loves to find heretics and find poor theology and point them out publically.
If John Piper does not find him that way ……
I already know and have John Piper on my ‘favorites’ list. I gave you John MacArthurs site, not Mars Hills. And if John Piper approves of cussing preachers, then I disagree with him on the issue. Its what the Lords Word says, not John Piper about cussing ‘preachers’.
Paul and Luann,
You are right about what you said about true worship. God is not in the unregenerate, so that proves your point about being together in Spirit and in Truth. Evangelism takes place to convert souls. It is hard to worship the Lord when you can hear the scoffs, sighs, and sneers of the individuals sitting next to you when you are really paying attention to what is being taught and you are hungering to hear more expository teaching. It is a distraction.
I know that the modern model for evangelism adds to apostasy and confusion. Fellowship is intended for true converts who worship in Spirit and Truth, so that the church will be spotless. I know that there will be some who read this and dislike my comment, but I don’t see how two can walk together if they disagree.
Paul and Luann,
There is nothing more distracting and irritating when you are really into a lesson, and you have a group of unbelievers sitting beside you who are there because a fellow ‘saved’ family member is there. They don’ t turn off their cell phone, they keep whispering to each other (loud whisper), and you can hear them sighing, scoffing, or jeering to one another. The teaching really makes no sense to them, so their lack of respect goes without regret.
Have you ever experienced this before?
Josh,
Yes we have experianced that also. Its sad. Not that we are so high and mighty, but hey, if they aren’t saved and you are in a real true church who has a pastor preaching on something only a saved person would know and understand, and the praise and worship that goes along with it, then I wish they’d stay home and not come into church and be a nusance. They are lost and usually don’t know any better. They are the walking dead. IF they are even interested (and they would be if the Holy Spirit is doing a work in them) then I still say outside the church doors is where they need to learn some basics so if and when they do come to church, its because they are hungry for God and want to worship Him in Spirit and truth!