Our enemy has many strongholds that he is using right now to keep the vast majority of professing Christians in spiritual blindness to the truth. I heard a sermon a few years ago by John Piper about theology through the ages. Piper contended that even those great theologians that God used powerfully in the Reformation had blind spots in certain areas. If that be so then how about today? I contend that that will be even more so in our climate of Spiritual Deception in the 21st Century.
A hermeneutic is simply a “filter” that theologians use to interpret scripture based upon certain “doctrines.” That definition is probably a little over simplistic, but it does convey what happens when men use extra-biblical techniques to apply against God’s Word that are the basis for all of their Biblical doctrines. One such “filter” that, I believe, when taken to extremes, that is quite damaging to the Body of Christ because it is used by our enemy as a stronghold from which he has the “authority” to blind people to the truth, is Dispensationalism. This “authority” is given to him by the very people who are blinded. When they seek a Biblical understanding that, for whatever reason, is not with pure (not to seek God and His glory alone) motives, they are entering the realm of idolatry where spiritual blindness and spiritual stupor awaits unless they are very careful always seeking God’s will and direction in their lives. However, if their motives are impure will they be doing that?
What is Dispensationalism? Here is the definition from John MacArthur’s book The Gospel According to the Apostles. This definition is found in Appendix Two on page 203.
Dispensationalism is a system of biblical interpretation that sees a distinction between God’s program for Israel and His dealings with the church.
He goes on to say that he learned his theology from men who taught him to be a Dispensationalist. Today as I was researching this piece I ran across this article by Nathan Pitchford entitled: Are there Two Gospels in the New Testament? I pray that God will speak to your heart as you read it and that we will all come to His throne of Grace with penitent hearts seeking only His truth from His Word to be applied to our hearts and lives according to His will. Soli Deo Gloria.
Possessing the Treasure 
There is only one gospel. The end of the Jew is somewhat of a mystery but it seems as if most of the living Jews will believe on Christ just before He returns. The truth today is this:
There are only two people groups, saved and lost. If a sinner, Jew, Gentile, or other, dies without Christ they will spend eternity in hell.
If a sinner, Jew, Gentile, or other, believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, he will spend eternity with Christ. The body of Christ knows no ethnic distinction.
This two gospel teaching is a misguided attempt to show preference to the house of Israel. That is why we should pray for Israel and respect the covenant that God made with Abraham, but never lose sight of the fact that they are enemies of Christ concerning the church as Paul observed. If indeed Israel believes on Christ en masse in the end, it will not be because of their spirituality, it will be totally because of God’s grace and God’s will.
God keeps His covenants even when man doesn’t. Praise His Name!
It is my opinion that the number of Jews coming to Christ in the last 50 years is a precurser of the coming salvation of Israel. What do you think, Mike?
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Amen Rick, very well said brother!
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Great topic Mike. Rick, I can’t add more to what you said other than, well said, you got it!
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Thanks Paul and Amen!
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This hits at the heart of dispensationalism…denying parts and sometimes large parts of Christ’s work. I am still saddened and shocked over the Shepherd’s Conference when I heard John MacArthur speak. He denied being a dispensationalist but clearly had a separate plan for the Jews vs the Gentiles. I got his Bible in 1997 and now can see his dispensational views in his comment sections. He is at least not as steeped into dispensationalism as some who are actually heretics like Zane Hodges. MacArthur is less of a dispensationalist but still has two plans, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.
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Sarah,
This is a quote from J.M.’s book <em>The Gospel According to the Apostles </em>p204 “I am a dispensationalist because dispensationlism generally understands and applies Scripture–particularly prophetic Scripture–in a way that is more consistent with the normal, literal approach I believe is God’s design for interpreting Scripture.”
J.M. is a dispensationlist. I have had those who disagree with my non-dispensationlist view of Doctrine and especially Eschatology tell me that I am wrong because my views are contrary to J.M.’s. That is astounding to me. I had no idea that J.M. was the one and only source of all Biblical truth.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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I just read the latest news article at my favorite end time place. He said that most people are blinded by dispensationlism and don’t know who and what Israel is. Is this a very common doctrine view?
Just curious. Thank you
In Him
Deborah
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Deborah,
Yes, it is the most common doctrine view and that is tragic.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Mike,
I am surprised at his admission to being a dispensationalist in the quote you gave when he said something like forget the crazy dispensational doctrine during the Shepherd’s Conference… that isn’t a quote but he made it sound like he was trying to distance himself from that doctrine even though what he was saying was certainly dispen. Oh, well! He certainly is our brother in the Lord. I’m quite sure that I don’t have all my ducks lined up in a row!….grace….we sure need it!
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Hello Mike and all,
I have said before I was raised as a dispensationalist on a scofield bible. The Lord has shown me the truth and is still showing me the truth.
The truth is there are two groups of people. The saved and the lost, the wheat and the tares, good fish and bad fish, sheep and goats. That’s it, two groups.
The Lord is merciful and kind. I now believe in a post-tribulation rapture and am premillenial. This is not possible at all under a dispensational interpretation. We have to read our bibles and listen to the Holy Spirt not man.
I love J.M. but am always surprised when I hear his eschatology. Like us, he is growing and needs prayers too. I have learned alot and grown from his ministry. Of course, all glory goes to the Holy Spirit who speaks through his ministry directly from the Father!
Only scripture.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Mike,
It is sad. I miss the brothers and sisters who used to come in here and participate. I am praying for them and I love them.
Mike, You have a great Fathers Day!
In Christ’s Love
Deborah
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Sarah,
Yes, the entire book I have been quoting from is an attack on extreme Dispensationalism. In that, I am with him, but then I read the transcript of his speech at the Shepherd’s Conference and I was shocked. Is this the same John MacArthur that is so precise and careful with scripture that makes such off the wall statements as this, “Amillenialism is Arminian and Dispensationalism is Calvinistic.”? Huh?
Oh well, Eschatology is not something I will divide over unless a view is obviously heretical.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Rachel,
I agree with you. I have many of his books and I use my John MacArthur Study Bible a great deal. I am just totally amazed at what he has been saying lately. He is my brother in Christ and we do need to pray for his eyes to be opened on this. You are right.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Amen Deborah!
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Happy Father’s Day and have a blessed Lord’s Day! :o)
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Mike,
To me, the literal reign of Jesus with sinners in Israel for 1000 years makes our Saviour seem powerless. He is already reigning and He managed to get our attention from were He sits. Praise our wonderful Lord!
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Mike,
I grew up on dispensational teaching, including a secret, pre-trib rapture, and held those views among others, until I began studying the Bible for myself and the Lord began to open my eyes.
However, you are right when you said, “Oh well, Eschatology is not something I will divide over unless a view is obviously heretical“.
We’ll keep praying for our brothers and sisters. I certainly need people praying for me too. It has been a long journey getting to this point, and I won’t fool myself that I’ve got it all together either. But our Lord and God is faithful. He is able to keep His own.
Love in Christ,
Yomi
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1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19We love him, because he first loved us.
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
With Christ’s Love for all,
David
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Mike and all,
I was reading Irenaeus book (V, 19-36) and he is very clear as to who THE church really is and what beliefs set us apart. Here is a quote:
“But the path of those belonging to the Church circumscribes the whole world, as possessing the sure tradition from the apostles, and gives unto us to see that the faith of all is one and the same, 1)since all receive one and the same God the Father, 2)and believe in the same dispensation regarding the incarnation of the Son of God, 3)and cognizant of the same gift of the Spirit, 4)and are conversant with the same commandments, 5)and present the same form of ecclesiastical constitution, and 6)expect the same advent of the Lord, 7)and await the same salvation of the complete man, that is of the soul and body.”
Irenaeus says all others are heretics. He wrote “Against Heresies” to preach against the gnostics. He said we must abide by the teaching delivered to us directly from the Apostles (which at that time was still done orally as well as being written down). Things sure have changed. Irenaeus said that all who deviate from what the apostles taught are heretics.
Ireaneus talks about Satan being bound by Christ as amillenialism does in his writings in this book. I can copy it down for you if you wish or you can look it up in this volume. The difference is that if you read all of his work you will find that he still looks for the first resurrection of body and soul and he is premillenial.
You may enjoy reading his works in these last days as they have not always been translated into our language. They are quite insightful.
For those who are wondering who Irenaeus is: John the apostle discipled Polycarp. Polycarp was one of the early church fathers and one of the first martyrs. Polycarp discipled Irenaeus. Irenaeus wrote many works against the gnostics and many of the original beliefs delivered directly down by the apostles. Irenaeus went on to disciple Hyppolytus who has also written many works that confirm the apostles teaching.
Many of these men were martyred and died. They were the very first churches dicipled directly from the apostles themselves.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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I believe like Rachel, except I was not “raised” anything at all. Since I’ve been in Christ, I’ve always believed in post trib resurrection/rapture and premil coming of Christ. Never really heard anyone talk about eschatology. Did not know there were all these views til 2000 when I first heard of Disp. All those years I actually thought my view was the only one, ha. Was I surprised to find almost everyone believes in pre-T/Disp. I think it is good to focus on our relationship with Christ, and on the work He wants us to do, on evangelism, and on preparing spiritually for whatever is next, and encouraging others to do the same.
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A.W. Pink wrote on this subject here:
http://www.aracnet.com/~wing/applican.htm
Here is a small quote from the study:
“But there is further reason, and a pressing one today, why we should write upon our present subject, and that is to expose the modern and pernicious error of Dispensationalism. This is a device of the Enemy, designed to rob the children of no small part of that bread which their heavenly Father has provided for their souls; a device wherein the wily serpent appears as an angel of light, feigning to “make the Bible a new book” by simplifying much in it which perplexes the spiritually unlearned.”
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Deborah,
You said : “To me, the literal reign of Jesus with sinners in Israel for 1000 years makes our Saviour seem powerless.”
Our Savior, however He chooses to do things, is never powerless. If you believe He is ruling in the millenium right now, then He is doing exactly what you just said makes Him seem powerless. I say this not to cause dissention but to caution you in love as your sister in Christ.
Here is a question that for some reason amillenialist have skipped over answering for me everytime I have asked the question.
Here’s the Question:
IF we are currently in the 1000 year reign of Christ and ruling and reigning with Him right now, and the consumation happens at the second coming of Jesus Christ, then when did/does the following occur?
Isaiah 65:19-25 “I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; *the sound of weeping and crying will be heard in it no more. *Never again will there be in it an infant who lives BUT A FEW DAYS, or *an old man who does not live out his years; *he who DIES at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who FAILS TO REACH a hundred will be considered accursed. They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For AS THE DAYS OF A TREE, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands. They will not TOIL in vain or BEAR CHILDREN doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the Lord, they and THEIR DESCENDANTS with them. Before they call I will answer, while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will FEED TOGETHER, and the lion will EAT STRAW like the ox, but dust will be the serpant’s food. They will neither harm or destroy on all my holy mountain, says the Lord.”
There are many other prophecies that must be fulfilled THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN FULFILLED and are prophecied to be fulfilled during the millenial period. These prophecies are scattered throughout the old testament.
After becoming post-trib. I definately saw verses that made me question pre-millenial versus a-millenial. Some verses seem to reconcile the second coming with the final judgment. Other verses definatley don’t reconcile the second coming with the final judgement (second resurrection).
You can look at these verses only two ways: 1. You decide that these verses reconcile the second coming to the second resurrection and one final consummation (amillenial) but in doing that you make a multitude of old testament verses ERRANT.
2. You reconcile the second coming with the first resurrection (which is bodily as Jesus’s resurrection was) (premillenial) and understand that the problem is not with the bible but with our limited knowledge until the Holy Spirit give it to us.
Now, if I am completely wrong here, would someone please show me where the above scriptures HAVE been fulfilled already OR show me how they can be fulfilled after a second resurrection where DEATH AND HADES have already been thrown into the lake of fire.
Please show me by scripture alone.
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Rachel
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Rachel, One question for you…….Have you read Kim Riddlebargers book on Amill??
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There you are Rachel! You forgot to come back to my site! Anyway, you found the verse I asked you to find for me about people living longer than 100yr. Great, now I can answer your question you posed to me at my site, btw, I answered your other questions. I find that it is always important to take Scripture in context that way you get the whole picture. Let’s back up to verse 17
” 17″For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth,
and the former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind.
18But be glad and rejoice FOREVER
in that which I create;
for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,
and her people to be a gladness.
Now let’s go to another place in Scripture that talks about a new heaven and earth. This Scripture not only talks about the new but what happens to the old.
2 Peter 3:12-14
“12waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”
These two verses are talking about the same time and same new heavens and earth which is the eternal…after resurrection day, after judgement day when the nonelect are sent to hell along with Satan and his own. This is the forever state in which we will dwell with Christ. Notice vv 17. He declares that He will make a new heavens and earth and He then goes on to describe what will be on them and what the conditions will be like. Many times the Bible uses (and I’m sure there is a word for what I am about to describe but I don’t know it) poetic-like talk when it wants to describe things we know of in our daily lives…things we are very familiar with and wants to give the listener a sense of embellishment yet we know it to be an understatement. Clear as mud right? Ok, for example God says He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. We know that He owns all the cattle on every hill because we know what Scripture teaches us about God and what He owns. But that is a poetic-like way of describing His ownership which would sound embellished to the listener of poetry yet when we “come out of” the poetry mode back into reality we know it is much more. See what I mean? So when these verses talk about living long, not toiling in vain or having children go to doom, it’s talking in a poetic way of the curse of sin being lifted. These people and we ourselves know of the pain and weeping of death and children dying early and all the struggles of life and the hardships of everyday life (especially those living in 3rd world countries). This is talking about getting rid of these pains as a whole that we bear each day. It isn’t saying that on the new earth each person will get to live 100yrs and we will have children on the new earth etc. We know that because of other Scripture that says we will be immortal and we won’t be given in marriage and have children. Now according to premill’s, Christ comes back to the old earth to reign for a thousand years so this verse can’t be a supportive Scripture for premill. This Scripture talks only of the new not the old. So, Rachel, this Scripture is talking about when Christ comes back after destroying the old and gives us the new and we live with Him forever. We amill’s believe this to be after the “1000yr” reign and after the Tribulation both of which are now happening. Christ will come back to a new heavens and new earth to reign with His children…He isn’t coming back to live among sinners again on an old earth…He’s been there, done that! ;o)
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Rachel, One more thing. I did some research and if you can get your hands on a couple of books, it explains all of Isaiah 65.
1. The Temple and The Church Mission: G.K. Beale
2. The Bible and The Future: Anthony A Hoekema
3. Triumph of The Lamb: Dennis Johnson
Now Beale mentions a guy by the name of J.D. Levenson alot where he got his information on chapter 65. So I hope that helps.
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Rachel,
I don’t even take those passages in Isaiah to be literal. I am a preterist but not a full one. We believe that most prophecy in Revelation has been fulfilled. The fall of Jerusalem and the Roman empire. I went to a Church of Christ as an adult and that is were I learned basic doctrine. I wasn’t raised in a Christian home . I attended a Lutheran church to be confirmed and that was it.
In Christ
Deborah
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Rachel, I should of put this all in ONE post. Forgive me Mike. If by any chance you can get ahold of R.C. Sprouls…… The Reformation Study Bible, ESV , you will see what 50 scholars give W/SCRIPTURE on all of chapter 65. So with all the information I have given you to research, I really do think it will help answer your questions about chapter 65.
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One thing we all can agree on.
Whatever God has predestined to come to pass…WILL!
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Sarah, Paul and Deborah,
Good Morning! Thank you for all of your responses. Sarah, I have not been able to get back to your site, meaning I can’t find it anymore. I can find your others but not that one. Can you give it to me as I have been dying to read your answers! Thank you! 🙂
To All Three of You,
So, are you saying that the first resurrection is spiritual only and that it has already happened?
In Christ,
Rachel
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Also to Sarah,
When the flood came the earth was destroyed and made new. Everthing was different, rain, rainbows and God even changed our eating patterns to include meat. The Flood definately initiated a new age.
How do you know that at Jesus second coming, when the earth is destoyed by fire we are not still here after and reign literally for 1000 years. After all the first time it was destroyed by water and we are still here by Gods grace? Even after the flood the heavens were new with rain and rainbows.
Love In Christ,
Rachel
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Sarah and all,
Isaiah still mentions death being around though. This is not poetic. If death has been destroyed yet, it would not even be mentioned as we are not supposed to be able to remember the old way of things according to the passage. Therefore, death is literal here. Since death is clearly still here from this passage and death is destroyed at the second resurrection after the 1000 years, then when does this passage take place literally? It must take place BEFORE the second resurrection or the scriptures are errant.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Sorry I have so many posts in a row instead of one! 🙂
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Rachel,
Because you believe I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
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Deborah,
I agree with you, he was with Jesus in Paradise that day. I am talking about being reunited with the body itself. Do you believe this mans body was physically resurrected the same day he died or that it will be resurrected at the first resurrection of the just or the second resurrection?
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Rachel,
I believe that the first resurrection has already occurred. I believe we were dead in our sins before Jesus came , we died for Him and have a new life. Born again. Simply put.
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Oh, I see what you mean by the just. I don’t read the bible in the same way as you do. We are the justified aren’t we? I only know new covenant theology that is why I get confused with your questions. Bless your heart Rachel. Your my sister and I love you 🙂
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Deborah,
When referring to the resurrection of the just I was referring to these two verses.
Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
The two resurrections are further distinguished in Revelation 20:4-5
“….They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.”
So it’s not that I’m reading it some unusual way, I was just quoting the scripture reference but I made the mistake of not quoting the verse! Sorry:-). I am just taking the plain reading of the text, meaning there are definately two resurrections. One is specifically called the “resurrection of the just”. The other one does not say. It may contain the “just” who die after the first resurrection and all of the “unjust” from all the ages (which I believe it does).
So: between these two resurrections are you saying the first resurrection of the “just” has already occured???
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Rachel,
Please forgive me for not being prepared to address this. I simply have not studied this from this perspective. I will refrain from addressing this until I have studied it. It would be very unwise to make statments out of ignorance about such a topic. 🙂
However, I seems to me, and I could be wrong here, that some references to our salvation itself are stated as a ressurection from the dead. However, I believe there is sufficient evidence that there will be a bodily ressurection as well, but again, I have not studied this in detail enough to be dogmatic about this. 🙂
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Rachel and all, Here is a WONDERFUL article on the 2 ressurections that Kline did and it explains it well (w/scripture) of course!!
http://www.covopc.org/Kline/First_Resurrection_Reaffirmation.html
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Paul,
I will read your article and reference the scriptures. 🙂
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Mike,
I understand. A good policy indeed.
Another clarifying verse:
2 Timothy 2:17-18 “Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.”
Now here Paul is talking to Christians. Paul is talking about a resurrection that has NOT taken place yet. Paul is talking about a resurrection not a regeneration because he is talking to Christians. If the first resurrection implied regeneration, they why get mad at Hymenaeus and Philetus, afterall it would be clear they were talking about regeneration. The answer is because Christians were looking forward to the resurrection of the body, and being united with Christ as well as their loved ones. This resurrection is bodily like Christ’s resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15: 22-26
“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all WILL BE made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; THE, WHEN HE COMES those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. FOR HE MUST REIGN until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.”
Two bodily resurrections. The first for the “just” who are Christ’s at his coming. Notice the words “will be made alive”, meaning we are not yet alive, we are not yet glorified (I am not talking about the spirit here, but the body. Currently we live in Christ, not ourselves). This will happen but not until our own turn, which scripture says here will be at Christ’s coming. Then he must reign until he puts all enemies under His feet and destroys death the last of the enemies.
Revelation 20:
“They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The REST of the dead DID NOT COME TO LIFE until the thousand years were ended.) This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the FIRST RESURRECTION. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will REIGN with him for a thousand years.”
Here we see spelled out in scripture the FIRST resurrection. It can only be the first resurrection if it is the FIRST resurrection. Notice that there will be another resurrection (when the rest of the dead come to life) but it will be after Christ has reigned for 1000 years.
It is not until after the 100 o years that death is destroyed at the great white throne judgement Revelation 20:7-10
And yes, ALL MEN COME TO LIFE both the just and the unjust. As in Adam all men die, so in Christ all men will live.
Now Compare these two verses:
1 Corinithians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkeness and will expose the motives of mens hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
“And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”
It sounds very much like the resurrection of the just is at the Lords second coming. We know from Revelation CHRIST will then reign for 1000 years before the rest of the dead are raised. At the second resurrection DEATH AND HADES ARE DESTROYED FOREVER.
So: the first resurrection had NOT happened when Paul was around. Scripture clearly states we WILL BE RAISED but in our own turn which will be at Christ’s coming. We also see that not all will be raised at Christ’s coming, there will be a period of 1000 years of Christ reigning with his saints (specifically reigning with those who are martyred during the tribulation which has not happened yet). When we then lay the Isaiah passage down between these two resurrections it and many other passages like it make perfect sense. Many of the earths curses are lifted. A child will play in an asp’s nest and not be hurt, a child will lead wild animals (no longer wild) by a rope. Lions will eat straw. Childern won’t die before 100 years of age. (YET NOTICE THERE IS STILL DEATH). For it is written, He must reign until he puts all of his enemies under His feet. The LAST enemy to be destroyed is Death. Revelation lets us know that death is not destroyed until the SECOND RESURRECTION, which is after Christ has been ruling on earth for 1000 years with his saints (particulary tribulation saints who did not take the mark). This cannot be happening right now. The tribulation saints have not yet been martyred.
Paul makes it clear the resurrection has not happened yet. He is referring to a bodily resurrection not regeneration.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Romans 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his Death?
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life.
We died to our sin and were resurrected to a new life. That is how I take this to mean.
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Revelation 20:4-5, “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been BEHEADED for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And THEY lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the REST OF THE DEAD did not LIVE AGAIN until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
A couple things I would like everyone to take notice of. This is about dead people. Physically dead people – both Christian and nonChristian. It is addressed as to when they will be resurrected. Those referred to here who live and reign with Christ during this thousand years – the millennium – THEY WERE BEHEADED. The first group are believers, but they DIED, LITERALLY, and are alive again in the first resurrection. These believers were once dead spiritually, yes, and then made alive – born again – spiritually resurrected. But IT THEN SAYS THEY PHYSICALLY DIED. These believers who have PASSED ON will take part in one collective, simultaneous resurrection and reign with Christ for a thousand years. This has not happened yet.
Have I missed the beast, the mark, the beheadings???? Are those resurrected Christians reigning with Christ quietly in heaven? Does Christ not reign with us on earth during the thousand years? According to 1 Corinthians 15:52-54, this first resurrection (and only resurrection of the saints) is at the last trumpet and it is physical.
Lord, bless our search of the Scriptures! I don’t have it all figured out.
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None of us do (completely) Once Confused. 🙂
This post was supposed to address how unbiblical Dispensationalism is. I suggest that all concerned here study these points very carefully.
Amillinialism does address these things, but I am not an Amil expert…yet. 🙂
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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I’m sorry Mike. 🙂 None of us no it all. I sure don’t.
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Best to be an expert in the scriptures, then see which view the scriptures line up with. Any view can take scriptures and interpret them to fit their view but there is only one truth. Studying scripture alone, all of the resurrection verses and old testament prophecies helps to show which view is TRUTH.
Look at the Jehovas Witnesses. They have a whole religion with their interpretation of the 144K.
Look at dispensationalism, making three groups of people. (at least hyper disp)
If we study the scripture alone, verses alone, and pray, the Lord shows us the truth.
When Paul said some destroy the faith of others by saying the resurrection had already happened, this is strong evidence that the resurrection is referring to a bodily resurrection and not regeneration. This is a clear warning that the resurrection has not happened. If amil is saying the first resurrection is spiritual and not bodily they will make errant alot of o.t. scriptures as well as Revelation 20. This is just as dangerous as dispensationalist saying that we are escourted out of here seven years early and don’t need to prepare.
The two witnesses will come during the first 3.5 years. Sometime at the 3.5 year mark, the anti-christ will kill these two witnesses. Remember the two witnesses have power to do all kinds of miracles and will destoy some with fire out of their mouths. These are going to be the witnesses, NOT the anti-christ and false prophet. The false prophet will kill these two men of God. The false prophet will call down fire from heaven at some point. ****WARNING: IF YOU BELIEVE WE ARE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION AND MILLENIUM AND THAT CHRIST WILL COME AT THE END OF THIS TIME AND DESTROY THE ANTI-CHRIST AND HIS BELIEVERS WITH FIRE YOU MAY BE DECEIVED WHEN THE FALSE PROPHET CALLS DOWN FIRE FROM HEAVEN .****
All here, if you are in Christ, the elect, then you will not be deceived period. But you must persevere to the very end, meaning to the death if necessary. ****This is the order of things: two witnesses, anti-christ and false prophet, Jesus Christ.***
When the anti-christ and false prophet kill the two witnesses and other believers and call down fire from heaven, this will NOT be Christ destroying his last enemies at the end of the millenium. You have been warned.
I am saying all of this in love. I hope for the best because I love you all. I hope we are all prepared. I am encouraged because many of you are preparing and reading books like Fox’s Book of Martyrs. Know that I am not trying to incite anyone here or come across as a know it all, because I don’t. But by God’s grace I believe this to be true and I don’t want your blood on my hands for not warning you.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Rachel,
by Scripture(not your own reasoning) tell me where God stated that after Noah’s flood He CONSIDERED it a NEW earth. I know you don’t think it was a new earth made I get your idea, but where does God think it’s a new earth? I don’t see Scripture that states that. What I see is that the same unclean animal species that went out of the ark and populated the same cursed earth and the same sinful mankind went out of the ark and right away started committing sin. That is not new. So you have rain and a rainbow and you get to eat meat that doesn’t equal new earth that equals new blessings. When God chose His people and made a covenant with them that didn’t equal a new earth…just a new covenant with blessings. When God makes a new earth and heaven He is going to wipe away all remnants of the curse…sinners, fallen creatures, and the cursed earth and heavens. I do have a Scripture that clearly states we will get a new heaven and earth. First the Scripture says the heaves will be set on fire and dissolved. What do you think would happen to earth if the heavenly bodies we view from earth dissolved? For example, what would happen to earth if we didn’t have the sun? Right then. However, the Scripture goes on to say AND the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn. You do remember earth is apart of the heavenly bodies…yes, I know you do. :o) So, in fact, vv. 17 is talking about a NEW heaven and earth.
I’ll get my hands on the first resurrection topic when I have more time.
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Also, the Hebrew language did incorporate poetic-like speech in their language. If God saying He owns the cattle on a thousand hills isn’t poetic or symbolic (the same) do you think He really owns only the cattle on a thousand hills? What do we tell Peter about the dissolving/melting heavenly bodies and that he won’t get a new heaven and new earth after all? :o(
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Sorry, Mike! Rachel my email address is farah001@centurytel.net If you still want to come visit email me and I’ll send you the site. I’m working tonight so I might not send it till tomorrow.
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Let us remember that above deciphering the chronology, we are to be looking for the Christ. Whenever He comes, bodily to this earth for sure, We will either be with Him or waiting for Him!
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Here is another Scripture to confirm the new heaven and new earth and that the old ones burnt up
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
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I know amils love church history as premils do too. This history goes back further than the reformers to the apostles and the apostles apostles.
This is a quote by Justyn Martyr from his work called: (Dial. with Trypho, sec.2) He is referring to Premill previously known as chilliasm: “it to be thoroughly proved that it will come to pass. But I have also signified unto thee, on the other hand, that many — even those of that race of Christians who follow no godly and pure doctrine — do not acknowledge it. For I have demonstrated to thee, that these are indeed called Christians; but are atheists and impious heretics, because that in all things they teach what is blasphemous, and ungodly, and unsound. But I and whatsoever Christians are orthodox in all things do know that there will be a RESURRECTION OF THE FLESH, and a thousand years in the city of Jerusalem, built, adorned and enlarged, according as Ezekiel, Isaiah, and other prophets have promised. For Isaiah saith of this thousand years (ch. 65:17) ‘Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind; but be ye glad and rejoice in those which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem to triumph, and my people to rejoice,’ etc. Moreover, a certain man among us, whose name is John, being one of the twelve apostles of Christ, in that revelation which was shown to him prophesied, that those who believe in our Christ shall fulfil a thousand years at Jerusalem; and AFTER THAT the general, and, in a word, the everlasting resurrection, and last judgment of all together. Whereof also our Lord spake when He said, that therein they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal with the angels, being made the sons of the resurrection of God.” — The Theocratic Kingdom, I, 480
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Hi Sarah,
I just read your posts. Yes, I definately want to come visit. I would have already but I could not find it! I will e-mail you and get it thank you.
Note: There was NO sea in the new heaven and new earth. In the millenial kingdom spoken of by the prophets there is still a sea and there is still death.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Rachael,
Amen, he did all that as the Church is the new Jerusalem ,praise God. He is still building it today! We were just grafted in. What a merciful Lord we serve!
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Hi Sarah,
You said: “by Scripture(not your own reasoning) tell me where God stated that after Noah’s flood He CONSIDERED it a NEW earth. I know you don’t think it was a new earth made I get your idea, but where does God think it’s a new earth? I don’t see Scripture that states that.”
2 Peter 2:4-5 (KJV)
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
AND SPARED NOT THE OLD WORLD, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Sarah,
When the o.t. prophets mention DEATH and a SEA and a BODILY REIGN OF CHRIST ON EARTH, during this millenial period, where (and not by your own reasoning) do you find it by Scripture alone that these things are only as you said:
“…poetic-like talk when it wants to describe things we know of in our daily lives…things we are very familiar with and wants to give the listener a sense of embellishment yet we know it to be an understatement.”
Scripture alone please.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Sarah,
In re-reading my very last post, it doesn’t come across very loving. I am sorry, I truely didn’t mean it that way. I will rephrase: 1DEATH, 2A SEA AND 3A BODILY REIGN OF CHRIST ON EARTH will all take place in the millenial time period according to the old testament prophets. These passages DO NOT refer to the final consumation. The ETERNAL/FINAL new heavens and new earth do not have DEATH OR A SEA. Plus Christ must rule bodily with a rod of iron from earth.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Rachel,
right now I’m on my break at work so I don’t have access to my Greek dictionary :o(. Anyway, off the top of my head I can tell you that many countries and cultures use the term “old world” to relate to their ancestoral time, but again, I’ll have to get home and research this which doesn’t seem like it will be hard since I already know that the flood didn’t wash away the earth and God threw them a new one :o). My Scriptures for doing away with this earth and heavens is much better than yours I have to admit. Yours just says old which this earth is old. Mine says new and the old passing away. ;o)…that’s the key passing away yours doesn’t say that. Not only that we both know that the Scripture you gave is talking about humans(mostly humans because it is talking about sin…the angels sinned the humans sin, the angel’s got their punishment the humans got their punishment) and animals that were not spared that’s the key. You wanted Scripture for my conclusion of poetic-like writing and I gave you the cattle on a thousand hills. I guess you don’t like that one…why? I’ll try to find more for you. Also, I know there will be seas in the millennial kingdom…I was just at one not too long ago…hehehehe! We should make that a amill/premill joke! I’m ejoying our debate…it’s much more fun than with the angry men that come to my site! Catch you on the up side of tomorrow!
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Sarah and Rachel,
Rev. 19…Jesus second coming with/for His saints…
Rev. 20…THEN Satan is bound for a thousand years, we rule and reign with Him…
…at the end of this chapter we see the dead NOT in Christ awake (ressurrect) to go through the second death (cf. vs. 5, “But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.”)
Rev. 21… THEN New heaven, NEW earth, no death, no sea…
Rev. 22…in further description we see God Himself dwells with us forever!
This is sequential. It is not Rev. 20, 19, 21, but 19, 20, 21… Let’s read it in its simplicity!
Sarah, your Scripture is fantastic for a new earth…but it comes after the thousand years, and well after the Lord’s second coming, which I am still looking for (“even so, come, Lord Jesus!”). There is an order, and to my eyes it is even written for us plainly, bless the Lord.
In Christ’s love,
Once Confused
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Sarah,
Your doing a great job. Your funny,too! 🙂 I like a sense of humor! We must keep that or this could get very frustrating. I’m praying for all of you.
In Him
Deborah
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Amen, Deborah! Besides it’s better to keep things lite…I’ve already learned something from Rachel (I’m not about to tell her what that is right now but it’s nothing to do with premill/amill =:^) and when we keep things loving we can learn from each other even if we don’t convert anyone! :o) Mike, when you want me to take this somewhere else just let me know I know you’ve got better things to do than read my comments on the same post over and over again. I’m going to bed now.
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I’m just like a Pit Bull…I can’t go to sleep till I’ve found the answer… in all other translations! Now I’ve got my proof that it means “old” as in “age” and not “old” as opposite of “new”! I feel much better now…let’s just pray you’re not a King James, or Darby, or Young, or Wycliffe translation only gal! If so, then I’ve got some stories for you! :o) Now, I’m going to bed
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.
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Amen Once Confused! You are absolutely right. I see that your eyes are opened to the order of things.
Sarah,
I am enjoying our debate too. I know that both of us would rather know the truth versus just “be right”.
I answered your question by scripture. My point was how do you know that the second coming initiates a “new world” in the sense that the flood initiated a “new world” but still on this earth.
I see that rather than answer the questions that I have been asking here for weeks you have chosen as other amillers have to completely avoid the questions.
My specific questions are how you can say that Jesus second coming is the final consumation when both Revelation in the New Testament and multiple prophets in the Old Testament including Isaiah speak of a clear time before the consumation where both Jesus and the saints will rule and reign. During this reign there is still a SEA and still DEATH. It is not until after the 1000 years at the SECOND resurrection that death is thrown into the lake of fire. AT THAT TIME the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH that you are speaking of will indeed come into being. In this new heavens and new earth there will be NO SEA and there will be no death as it will just have been destroyed at the SECOND RESURRECTION.
Point two: My response was not that you can’t show me poetry in the bible. ha My point was that you are telling me that what is plainly stated in the scripture (DEATH) is not really true. You are saying the DEATH mentioned is only a memory. Yet nowhere does it say that, in fact it plainly states that people die and that children are born (another thing that does not happen in the FINAL NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH). In fact, the passage says in this earthly kingdom (millenial reign) that we won’t remember the bad things that happened before so the fact that death is still happening is no where near a memory because they wouldn’t be able TO REMEMBER it.
It amazes me that amillers believe that the first resurrection has happened already and that the next resurrection to come second resurrection when scripture is clear and plain on this in Revelation.
Paul even gave all of us a warning when he plainly stated: ” Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.” 2 Timothy 2:17-18.
This is a clear warning that you are choosing to disobey.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Oh, and no, I am not KJV only.
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Also Sarah,
My original comment in regard to Noah and the earth implied what you just said:
“The Flood definately initiated a NEW AGE.”
I was trying to get you to see that even if this earth is destroyed by fire, like this earth was destroyed by water, we can still be on this earth which is then new/new age/ whatever you want to call it. Jesus is very clear that he will have a huge banquet that He prepares for us on mount ZION which is here on this earth. That cannot happen if this earth is no longer in existance. His people cannot inherit the land here on earth that He specifically tells about in Ezekiel if this very earth is not in existance. Everthing does make sense however, if the earth is destroyed by fire at the first resurrection when Jesus comes, (destroyed in the sense that the earth was destroyed and made new like in the flood) and Jesus reigns bodily on the earth with his saints for 1000 years over the 144k jews who have entered into the millenium along with others who did not take the mark. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is released for a little season and deceives those living on the earth once again and leads them into battle against Jerusalem. BUT this time no war breaks out as they are destroyed by fire from heaven. AT THAT TIME the earth is completely destroyed by fire, MELTED, GONE, NO MORE. The second and final resurrection then takes place and DEATH is destroyed. There is no longer and SEA. THEN the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH are forever and we see God the Father face to face and God the Father dwells with us in the Heavenly Jerusalem.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Rachel,
You said, “Paul even gave all of us a warning when he plainly stated: ” Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.” 2 Timothy 2:17-18.
This is a clear warning that you are choosing to disobey.”
I am Amil and this statment is not speaking of the teaching of the 1st Ressurection that we believe is Salvation. This is speaking of the heresy that we have nowadays that is called Full Preterism which teaches that Jesus has already bodily returned and ressurected the dead in Christ in 70AD.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Mike,
Are you sure? How do you know for sure?
1.What if amil was around at the same time that preterism was?
2.And of course if it wasn’t around, then it wasn’t being taught by the apostles.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Rachel,
You are making some huge assumptions here in both of your statements.
Amil thought was not formalized until the second and third Centuries. It was the theology of Athenasius and Augustine and seems to be even in Polycarp. We really do not have the Apostles teaching on this. However, we do have the destruction of Jerusalem at 70AD which fulfilled many of the prophecies that was given by Jesus Himself. Many did teach that the Jesus had returned then. Josephesus hints that some taught this.
What do we have then?
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Okay, I need some clarification on the Amil take on Scripture.
Do Amils believe the first resurrection is salvation – becoming born again?
If so, how do they (you) explain the first resurrection as explained in 1 Cor. 15:51-52? “…We (“we” being Christians, as they are the ones he is addressing) shall not all sleep (die physically), but we shall ALL be changed – IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” He is speaking TO Christians here. He is speaking ABOUT a change to these ALREADY BORN AGAIN Christians. Can they be born again…again?
Look at verses 20-21, “But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.” Christ physically died and was resurrected and ascended into heaven, the FIRSTfruits of those who have died. When the rest of His?…
“But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, AFTERWARD those who are Christ’s AT HIS COMING” (1 Cor. 15:22-23).
When he comes, we can expect a real, actual resurrection!
For this to be spiritual regeneration and not the dead in Christ actually being resurrected, then all believers in Christ would have to be born again at exactly the same moment everywhere on earth as it says when it will happen and it will be ALL believers simultaneously. Not to mention, Jesus said the resurrection would be on the “last day” in the book of John. What did He mean? These verses explain one another.
If I understand the Amil belief correctly (and I’m not sure that I do), there is no resurrection in your eyes other than becoming born again?
Thanks for the help!
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Sharon,
I am not an Amil “expert,” but here is my understanding so far. I am still studying this. We believe that there is only one return by Christ, not two. At his second coming in the clouds with great glory he will resurrect the quick and the dead. That means that there is one resurrection. Some to eternal life, some to eternal death.
Since we believe that the first ressurection is salvation it also means that Christ is ruling and reigning right now. Is He? Where is He? He is ruling and reigning on His Throne in Heaven. Where is His Kingdom? It is in Heaven and in each of His Saints.
As I said, I am still studying this so please forgive me for being brief. I suggest a book by Kim Riddlebarger called “A Case for Amillenialsim.” I have it. It explains all of this very well. Also, I am getting ready to order a book called “The Triumph of the Lamb” It is highly recommended as well.
However, really what difference does all this make? What we should be concerned about is the soon return of our Lord. No matter what we beleive about Eschatology is not going to change one little bit how God does what He is going to do.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
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Mike,
They aren’t statements they are questions.
What I was trying to do in asking the questions was to show that either:
BOTH preterism and amillenialism were around at the same time so Paul could be talking about EITHER group talking about the first resurrection
Or
Amillenialism was not taught by the Apostles
From what I understand, amillenialist believe that the first resurrection is regerenation. In Revelation we are told about the christians/martyrs who “come to life”. They are already christians who have died (beheaded is pretty definate) and they THEN come to life (meaning bodily resurrection). Revelations says this is the first resurrection. So any other “resurrection” does not happen before this resurrection. That is why it is called the FIRST resurrection. We are already regenerated but then we will be united with our bodies as Jesus was reunited with his body. This will happen when it is our turn to be resurrected, which scripture is clear on, is at at His coming. Revelation shows us that not all will rise at His coming, the rest will not rise until 1000 years later at the SECOND resurrection. At that second resurrection Death will be destroyed (thrown into the lake of fire) and there will be a new heaven and a new earth which will have no sea. During all of the prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled in the old testament prophets there is a time period which fits right in line with a bodily reign of Christ on earth that still has death and a sea (there are even fish in it). We know that these prophecies must be fulfilled prior to the final consumation. We know that they are not currently being fulfilled in this age because of other prophecies happening simultaneously with the DEATH AND SEA prophecies that are NOT being fulfilled right now. Examples of these prophecies are our longevity (anyone who dies before 100 is considered a youth), a child will play with asps and not be harmed, a little child will lead animals that are wild in this age by a rope, we will be the only ones to live in the houses we build for ourselves, lions will eat straw, wolves and lambs will lay down together, lions and lambs will lay down together, and no one will harm or destroy on God’s Holy mountain (Zion). None of these things are happening now. There are more prophecies for the millenial age which are not happening now, so we are definately not in the millenial age. This age happens when there is still death and when there is still a sea. This lines up perfectly with Revelation where it says Jesus will rule for a thousand years. We are told another place that he must reign until he puts all of his enemies under his feet and that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Again this lines up perfectly with Revelation because death is not destroyed until after the 1000 year reign is over at the second resurrection.
Love in Christ,
Rachel
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Amen Mike!! We would hate to loose site of that with all of this discussion about how He is coming. He is coming and we need to be ready. No matter which belief we view. It might be the full preterists who won’t be prepared. They will be some of the ones who will be asleep when he comes. I don’t take asleep to be literal by the way. 🙂 I mean spiritually!
Deborah
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This has been fun, but it’s time to end the comments for this post. 😦 Why? I think we are way off topic and if this continues going in the direction it is going we are not going to be having fun anymore. 😦
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