Submission to Authority


by Mike Ratliff

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. (Ephesians 6:5-8 ESV)

God’s ways are not Man’s ways. His ways are far above our ways. In fact, to those with a fleshly focus, His ways are entirely inscrutable. It is saddening to hear so many in the pulpits of churches preach messages, which lead their followers to pursue a self-focused or selfish lifestyle. It is as if they completely ignore all of the teachings in Sacred Scripture that command Christians to be humble and obedient.

Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. (1 Peter 2:13-17 ESV)

In this passage the two words “Be subject” is one Greek word, “ὑποτάσσω” or “hupotassō.” It means to place in an orderly fashion under something. This is a command and is in aorist tense, imperative mood, and passive voice. Aorist imperative denotes a command, request, or entreaty calling for action to be begun at that very moment. The passive voice tells us that this is a command to do some action that will directly affect oneself, hence the word “Be” preceding the command. The KJV translates this as “Submit yourselves.”  I believe the ESV’s translation is closer to what Peter is commanding us though for it conveys the word picture of us actually conforming ourselves in both attitude and deed. 

Why are we to submit ourselves? It is for the Lord’s sake. Peter is commanding us to be subject to every human institution so that God will be honored and glorified. Rebellious conduct by Christians brings dishonor on Christ. How are you doing in obeying the speed limit and driving laws where you live and work? This command says that we are to be subject to every human institution. Peter then tells us that every human institution or ordinance includes all possible governmental authority of wherever God has placed us. 

In the few years this blog has been online it has become more than apparent to me that there are many foolish people who dearly love to criticize our faith and try to make their outlandish comments in the hope of provoking an argument. It took me awhile, but over time I have learned to not entertain such foolishness. Instead I have determined to follow Peter’s command here to do good and thereby silence the ignorance of foolish people. If we obey the authorities God had set over us then those who desire to criticize our faith must do so from an untenable position. In v16 the word “servants” is the Greek word “δοῦλος” or “doulos.” This word means “one in permanant servitude.” In other words, a doulos is a slave. We bring dishonor on God when we attempt to live this life outside of the context of being God’s doulos. We bring glory to Him when we live as servants of God, honoring  everyone, loving the brotherhood, fearing God, and honoring the emperor.” We may not have an “emperor” over us, but this still applies in our honoring of whatever leaders God has placed us under. 

Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (1 Peter 2:18-25 ESV)

Our Christianity does not give us the right to rebel against our superiors in the social structure no matter how unfair or harsh the conditions are. We must continue to do good. God does not promise that we will not suffer if we do what is right. Christ’s life is our example. He suffered for us and has left us to follow in His steps. Even though our Lord was treated harshly, He never retaliated in any way. Instead, He entrusted Himself to the Father who judges justly. The Cross was where He bore our sins. Those who are New Creations in Him are to die to sin and live unto righteousness. Our Lord’s suffering and death has healed our slavery to sin and cancelled the indictment of eternal death against us.  Therefore, let us obey our Lord in submitting to all authority over us for His glory alone.

Soli Deo Gloria!

47 thoughts on “Submission to Authority

  1. hey mikie i read the post and just have one or two questions if that is ok bro….

    it is like, the submission to authority thing…and you said we are submit no mater how harsh they are..

    in this country the highest authority is suppose to be a document, and that document has rules that the gov.(those over us) are to follow…

    and we have a procedure for removing bad leaders…

    do you see removing them as conflicting with what the bible teaches on the subject?…

    and if the people in charge disregarded the document that is this lands highest authority, then wouldn’t we be in fact, being disobedient if we submitted to them and not the lands highest law?…

    thanks and GOD bless…seldom…


  2. Seldom,

    If a government has laws in effect that allow the removal of those in office who are not fulfilling their office then there is nothing wrong with going through that process.

    The only answer I can give you is what Peter said. God is in authority over all. When we submit to those over us then we are submitting to HIS authority. Cry out to Him for relief instead of pursuing some worldly remedy. It is all a matter of whether you trust God or not to do what is right and just.

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  3. Mike,

    I am trying to understand the contextual position from which you write. Whatever your situation, I believe the Lord has blessed you with wisdom and knowledge for the good of the visible Church the body of Christ, as contained in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians:

    “We were baptised into one body in a single Spirit, Jews as well as Greeks, slaves as well as free men, and we were all given the same Spirit to drink” (1 Cor 12: 13 NJB)

    Much of the coming judgement on Christians stems from the fact that they are unable to rise above the fleshy and biased “denominational outlook” utterances that by default, encourage the brethren to break the law of indivisibility of the body of Christ.

    This is a scandal even to the unbelieving world, yet most Christians condemn what is Holy with their own mouth thereby submitting Christ to public ridicule.

    God’s judgement on this grave sin is righteous; yet He is always full of mercy towards sinners who listen and repent.


  4. Mike,

    Exactly. Because Christ Jesus is above all earthly powers, rebellion can only be from the evil one.

    In fact, the only documented event where Christ demonstrated visible anger was when He determined that money changers had defiled the temple of God. What was His response to that which is defiled?

    ‘You see all these? In truth I tell you, not a single stone here will be left on another: everything will be pulled down.’ (Matthew 24:2 NJB)

    When people rebel against God, they bring judgement on themselves.

    Another point I wished to make. In giving a vision of Himself, Christ turned the abuse and murder of Saul of Tarsus, into a force for incalculable good. Along with St. Peter, St. Paul took the living gospel to the emperor.

    Authentic Christian loyalty must be to the body of Christ first, and then to his brothers and sisters. If we can get this right, incalculable good will follow.


  5. Shevabearkhot,

    Our faith is alive and growing in both depth and breadth. When we doubt, and we all do, we must put our eyes back on Christ. If we don’t then the injustice and abuse all around us in and out of the visible Church will cause us to despair and rebel.

    As a teacher of the Word my role is simply to tell the truth in love. I have no control of what the Holy Spirit does with that truth. I must simply trust Him. I would dearly love for all believers to forget their denominational focus and seek to be united in the truth and the gospel and our Lord. There are so many who profess Christ but who are only focused on religiosity.

    I am Reformed in my theology, but as John MacArthur once said when asked if we should divide from those who aren’t, “Nooooooooooooooooo!” Yes we are to divide from those who pervert the Gospel in any way, but always from a foundation of love and restoration.

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  6. Mike,

    We are in perfect agreement if we live according to the law of the Spirit. Peace in Christ, brother.

    Soli Deo Gloria


  7. I would like to recommend a very good book related to this topic. “The Sword. (The Blessing of a Righteous Government and the Overthrow of Tyrants)” It answers a lot of questions like:
    1.) When do God’s people submit to governmental authority?
    2.) When does God condone military action?
    3.) When is it proper to overthrow tyrannical regimes?
    4.) Examples of God’s people taking up the sword to overthrow oppressors.
    5.) When is a governmental authority upholding God’s word?
    6.) What Biblical authority do govts. have?
    7.) When do Christians draw the line, when it comes to governmental laws?
    8.) If a tyrant oppresses God’s people, do they have right to take up the sword and overthrow them? If so, when, and how?
    9.) If a tyrant does not repent, and God’s people have fervently prayed for him to repent, and he doesn’t, should they then pray for God’s’judgment?

    There are many more questions answered. The author is Randall A. Terry. No govt. has ever been perfect, but govts. have existed in the past where God’s people can enjoy some peace, security, and some prosperity. (NO I am not talking about the SPP for the North American Union or endorsing a one world govt. ) The book obviously goes into detail about when to obey and not to obey.
    Daniel submitted to Babylon, but not to every law. If we are faced to obey a law which contradicts scripture, then we shouldn’t. God’s people can be oppressed and suffer. There is no promise of paradise to any of us in this world right now.
    Romans 13 is talking about govt. which does not violate God’s word. In America, prostitution and gambling are legal in some states, but does that make it right.
    Going into the present and future, England is now requiring council members to fast on Ramadan. That would not fly with me. They can lock me up if they want. And then when the antiChrist appears, will you look at Romans 13 with an undiscerning heart and take the mark? It is all a matter of discernment.


  8. Josh,

    Thanks for that brother. I honestly believe that in our day to day walks we should reflect Christ’s character even when we are oppressed.

    “But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps”

    No, we should not obey ungodly laws. Yes, we should disobey the govt. if it calls for us to disobey God. However, we must see the pressure put on us to compromise as an opportunity to do good in the face of it, enduring the backlash graciously while waiting on God.

    What about other victims of this oppression? Shouldn’t we help them, pray for them, feed them, clothe them? Yes! Shouldn’t we pray for the authorities over us? Yes!

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  9. Josh,

    I think God sees tyranny rather differently to the way we do. Besides, one tyrant is very much like another.

    Best to leave the judging up to God, who alone is able to weigh up these very delicate matters.

    Sincerely in Christ.


  10. Mike,
    Good post. But… I believe if you cross reference Paul’s writings (in the KJV) that you will find he IS saying what you are espousing about authorilty. He even demonstrated it in his actions. He obeyed God, but submitted to the earthly authority by willingly going to jail for his beliefs. We must always remember the fulness of CONTEXT (not just the passage at hand, but the whole idea of the writer).



  11. Mark,

    Yes, but… I did not say that the KJV was wrong. I said that the ESV’s translation into English was better. We are to “BE ὑποτάσσω.” or “BE subject.” Also, this epistle was written by Peter. In any case, the entire N.T. is replete with this level of self-sacrifice; therefore, we are called to emulate Christ in this.

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  12. Mike,

    The scary thing is.. the ESV translation is not derived from the RT; it is from the Alexandrian Text (which history proves to be corrupt. The history of that text is very revealing). Therefore, the KJV word usage — since it is the only english translation to stay true to the RT — is what is to be trusted.

    Satan’s first attack on man was to attack God’s Word… “Yea hath God said.” He has not changed that tactic, and he is winning by confusing people as to what comprises the preserved text of the Bible (regardless of the language, or version).

    I just believe that pharses such as, “there is a better word in the such and such version,” leads to confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Of course, this is just an elementary reason for the confusion.

    Food For Thought,


  13. Mark,

    Er, yes he was sent to jail but the Lord sprung him out again. Peter’s epistle, the whole of the New Testament needs to be seen in context of prophecy fulfilled. In this case, Isaiah 61: 1-2 (all versions are pretty much in agreement in what is being said in the NJB).

    “The spirit of Lord Yahweh is on me for Yahweh has anointed me. He has sent me to bring the news to the afflicted, to soothe the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to captives, release to those in prison, to proclaim a year of favour from Yahweh and a day of vengeance for our God, to comfort all who mourn”.

    Sincerely in Christ.


  14. if one lives by the teaching of our LORD…then there is nothing over them…by that i mean, in their obedience to JESUS words it would naturally follow that they would follow all laws as long as it did not violate GOD’s law…

    even without making any special effort to follow the laws of man…they woulld just be doing so by theor lifestyle…imo…


  15. ok thy that one again…

    “they woulld just be doing so by theor lifestyle”

    it should read…

    they would be doing so by their lifestyle…

    clearer i hope…sorry…


  16. Mark,

    The ESV NT is dervived from the United Bible Societies’ fourth edition of the Greek New Testament, and the twenty-seventh edition of Nestle and Aland’s Novum Testamentum Graece.

    I use multiple translations when I do a Bible Study and I rely on the Greek Text more than the English for word studies. Real Christians have the Holy Spirit and showing what a word really means in context does not cause confusion in them…

    The Greek Text I use is the Textus Receptus and Tichendorf. I have found little difference between them. KJV onlyism is abhorrent to me for there are many areas in it that I find poorly translated. Most areas are well done. The main area of disagreement I have with the KJV and others is the inserting of words that are not in the underlying text. I can see where this is ok at times, but I have found many cases where this has lead to a misunderstanding of what the Bible is really saying.

    God gave us minds sir and with the Holy Spirit we are able to reason correctly. The ESV is superior to many of the translations out there. I use the KJV, but only for research. If you want to know what is really being said it helps tremendously if you are able to go to the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek — Prayerfully.

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  17. sheva said,
    “I think God sees tyranny rather differently to the way we do. Besides, one tyrant is very much like another.

    Best to leave the judging up to God, who alone is able to weigh up these very delicate matters.”

    at first glance i can see how one can incline to agree with you bro…

    but suppose…just suppose one was a CHRISTian, and it was their job to make those very type of calls… could then by your post, a believer serve in such a job, as having to remove corrupt leaders, or atleast, pushing for their removal…thus not just making it their civic duty, but their professional duty as well…

    could a CHRISTian, do you think, perform in that position, and still be acting appropriately?…


  18. Mike,

    How does the Isaiah 61 ESV version differ from the KJV and the NJB for instance?

    Can you give us more examples of differences in the underlying meaning of other scriptures?



  19. sheva,

    Not here. This is not the right place or context for this discussion. What I was talking about is the vast differences I see when I study the Greek from what the English translations say. A lot of the differences I have seen is when the OT is quoted in the NT. The New Testament writers used the Septuagint almost exclusively and there are some passages that are totally different than the Hebrew.

    I have never read a NJB version. Isn’t that the Roman Catholic Bible?

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  20. on the kjv topic…i like kjv…but read many translations…

    i use kjv because i like it and i understand it…even when some say…this word or that word is not correct, perhaps they are right or not, but the meaning of hte text is still clear to me…it is the words that have changed in english, not the translation of them that really used to throw me off years ago with the kjv…

    but i find usually with any translation, if it is a real translation, it can stand within the bounds of it’s own cover, and support itself…it is wierd but i have seen it happen time and again…


  21. I agree with that seldom. It is when we get into that “kjv onlyism” stuff that I raise the red flag. I read the KJV whenever I study because so many of my research tools are keyed to it. It is when you see the NT Greek lined up with the KJV text that it becomes more clear how they inserted words for clarity. In many cases it was right. In others it isn’t because it violates context. However, God is good and I agree with you that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts when we read these texts to apply them to our hearts.

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  22. mikie said,
    “It is when we get into that “kjv onlyism” stuff that I raise the red flag.”

    amen mike…but you know the one thing i find causes more confusion, for most people, than anything else as far as the bible goes?…

    is verses and chapters….which the greatest help so far in studying the bible…but for many it seems, the biggest stumbling block as well, as somehow it kills their ability to read context as context….

    sometimes i think the first bible a young CHRISTian should read, should not have verses and chapters,…just books…written like a normal book…


  23. not that i know of…but there needs to be…i thougght about it a few years ago when dealing with members of hte one verse church…they seem to think each verse is an individual precept or something…


  24. seldom, that’s bizarre. I think a good example is John 3:16. It is a wonderful verse, but if you put it in context with the rest of Jesus’ talk with Nicodemus then the richness of it really comes through. Context is sadly neglected.


  25. oh yes and many other examples…especially those who try to make the n.t. legal….i.e. 7thda, upc, ect ect…

    there is also a need for a certain type of preaching bible but i will save that for another time..


  26. Mike,

    Potential differences in translation and connotation is particularly important since, it contributes to the biggest heresy of all – the division of the body of Christ.

    As you say, real Christians are less prone to falling into this particular trap since they have the Holy Spirit.

    Yes, the NJB (New Jerusalem Bible) is the official Catholic Bible.

    Sincerely in Christ.


    Your point is a very valid one. What I mean is that God’s tyranny index might be a little different from our’s.

    Our job is not to rebel against authority but to let Christ lift us up, even as He is lifted up.

    Sincerely in Christ.


  27. Mike,
    I’m glad I kick-started a good discussion. But I must needs correct a false assumption; I am not KJV only. I am RT only. It just so happens that the KJV is the only english version off of the RT. The Tsidendorf mansuscript was found in a trashcan in 1844; It was awaiting burning because of its many mutilations.

    I do believe it is possible to have an accurate version in the english — even today — but… it won’t happen because of the “text” issue (“scholars” have bought into the Alexandrian text counterfeit). There are many Bibles in other languages off the RT… and they are accurate aswell.

    Let me restate…. the issue is not KJV only; it is RT only. I am not Peter Ruckman (even though I believe he knows his stuff).

    Have you ever really studied the Alexandrian text, who had thier hands on it, where it was located… and the like? Also… what is the ESV translation of Psalm 12:6-7?



  28. Mark,

    I am not! Why? Because I do not like it when the discussion section of a post is changed from the subject of the post. I do not appreciate it at all Mark. I ask you to relent from doing this again.

    Here is the source of the ESV:

    The ESV is based on the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible as found in Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (2nd ed., 1983), and on the Greek text in the 1993 editions of the Greek New Testament (4th corrected ed.), published by the United Bible Societies (UBS), and Novum Testamentum Graece (27th ed.), edited by Nestle and Aland.

    The currently renewed respect among Old Testament scholars for the Masoretic text is reflected in the ESV’s attempt, wherever possible, to translate difficult Hebrew passages as they stand in the Masoretic text rather than resorting to emendations or to finding an alternative reading in the ancient versions.

    In exceptional, difficult cases, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Peshitta, the Latin Vulgate, and other sources were consulted to shed possible light on the text, or, if necessary, to support a divergence from the Masoretic text. Similarly, in a few difficult cases in the New Testament, the ESV has followed a Greek text different from the text given preference in the UBS/Nestle-Aland 27th edition.

    You must never forget that the OT is not in any way associated with what you are referring to in the “Alexandiran Text.” No matter which English version you are reading it is based on the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible with the exception of those based on the Greek OT, the Septuagint and they are not readily available.

    In Christ

    Mike Ratliff


  29. the smart dude who put the rt together had some reservations about it….not enough time, not enough manuscripts ect. ect. ….


  30. Pingback: Why We Need to Submit to All Authorities « Take Up Your Cross

  31. sheva,

    You are right about letting God do the judging, but suppose that God raises up saints to overthrow a tyrant. Many examples in history and in the Bible to support ‘taking up the sword.’ After fervent prayer, and the tyrant’s failure to repent, the sword is a last resort. Obviously Psalm 149:8-9 supports the right of God’s people to stand up and resist the murder or oppression of innocents. He raised up Jehu to overthrow and destroy the house of Ahab and Jezebel (see 1 Kings 18-2 Kings10). Also the Queen Athaliah reigned in Judah for six years. IN the 7th year, Jehoiada the high priest with certain captains raised up an insurrection against her and had her executed (2 Kings 11:4-16).
    What about America and other armies being raised up as a judgment upon Hitler. God ordained that too. God still deals with nations in the same manner he always has. Humility and meekness does not always mean to sit there and let a rabid dog chew off your arm bite by bite without you acting in self defense. Standing armies and the police exist to uphold justice. If they fail to do that, and instead wreak havoc on the innocent and justify the wicked, then God’s people are no longer obligated to submit to their authority. Revolutions have freed the innocent from oppression (see Knox’s Revolution, Cromwell’s Revolution, American Revolution). The sword is a last resort.


  32. Saddam Hussein wreaked havoc upon his own people. His own police force didn’t uphold the right of the innocent. Obviously God strengthened the arm of the US military to execute judgment upon Saddam. Do we need to talk about the Taliban? They were not exactly ‘godly folk’ who faithfully executed their responsibility to protect the common good of the people. Torture, rape, child molestation, drug cartels (opium), and pillaging the innocent. What kind of God do you think Jesus is? He is not a lemming. He still faithfully executes justice in the earth today. Even if it means by force. The execution of Saddam and his torturers was of God. It obviously happened, so therefore God willed it. Shev, God gives his people the ability to discern naive from just. Tyrants are not just.
    Millions of Jews died because of Hitler. Did God just sit there and do nothing. Far from it……….. He faithfully executed justice by bringing judgment upon the Nazis. Many Christians were instruments of his judgment during WW2.


  33. joshi hear what you are saying, ut i just cannot agree with a CHRISTian takiing up arms to kill another person…

    buti did not really see anything by you that supports that a CHRISTian can kill ..unless one says that rom 13 is….but is that really talking about CHRISTians?…


    josh said,
    “Do we need to talk about the Taliban? They were not exactly ‘godly folk’ who faithfully executed their responsibility to protect the common good of the people. … drug cartels (opium)”…

    oh no sir…it was the taliban that all but drove opium production completely out of afghanistan….poppies did not make a come back until the u.s. over threw the taliban…


  34. Submission to authority when it comes to government is easy. If it doesn’t contradict God’s Word, we must submit without complaint (how many believers cross that line?). When it comes to a local elder authority, we submit unless the Holy Spirit has directed us to leave, and in that case, we leave in peace if at all possible.

    ( BTW – as it concerns all the “texts” controversy. If God gave His Word but could not preserve His Word than it is useless. The Holy Spirit can use many texts to convey truth, what we must reject are translations or paraphrases that attempt to steer a particular doctrine. Russel made his own translation in order to start his cult of JW)


  35. If a thief breaks into your house with a machete (like they do in Sudan) you think that it is a sin to kill him in self-defense? Don’t forget that in Sudan they don’t just kill you, they chop off a limb or two. If what you are saying is true is true, seldom, than WW2 was unjust and Hitler should have remained in power.
    Read more than the red letters seldom. God is a just God because he executes judgment upon those who wreak havoc on the innocent. If prayer and petition do not get them to repent, then God does not always expect his people to sit there and act like a pin cushion. Yes, some will be martyrs, but others will not. God still deals with nations, wickedness, and corruption in the earth. Read Psalm 149:8-9. I guess King David was a terrorist then, hunh seldom? Jehu? Jehoiada?
    I did say as a last resort seldom. God will uphold the right of the innocent in the case of tyranny.


  36. Seldom,

    The Taliban should have been left in power. Is that what you are saying? Saddam’s policemen used to cut out the tongues of the innocent. I saw these videos myself. It was horrifying. He would blindfold his prisoners, tie them up and make them walk off of a roof ( about 4 stories).
    I was also stationed with Muslims. No rights of the accused. Islam does not give you a fair trial. They torture you. I saw a Saudi soldier strapped down to the hot asphalt with his hands tied behind his back, face down in the middle of the summer, literally cooking himself alive and watching him scream. Is this worthy of respect? They also beat them on the soles of their feet.
    I have a Christian friend who is a captain fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. He has fought in both. Is killing the Taliban a sin in your eyes? What about Saddam? Neither one of them will listen and repent, but yet they spread their hatred like gangrene. They did not repent. People prayed for years for them to. What then, seldom?


  37. The guy from Saudi Arabia had both his hands and his feet tied behind his back. They calf tied him. They made him lay there on the black asphalt during the hottest time of the day. It was July. No pants or shirt. Go figure. Just boxer shorts, in front of everybody for everybody to see.
    We wanted to stop what was going on, but for stupid diplomatic reasons, we were not allowed to intervene. Many of us were very angry.
    If you saw this happening here in America, what would you do? Will you then accuse a man of sin if he sets someone free from torture? What about cutting out someone tongues? Are you going to sit there and say, “Well you know.. Christians are not allowed to do anything.”

    God will uphold the right of the innocent and the just. He is not ignorant of the misery of tyranny, seldom.


  38. none of your reasons justify a CHRISTian taking up arms josh…

    there was not a case of injustice greater than JESUS’s arrest, trial and murder…the law was broken time and again in HIS trial, those who objected were ranout of the council meeting….there was no evidence of the charges, witnesses had to be paid to lie, and even though HE was pronounced to have no fault by the judge, HE still was executed…

    yet in the beginning, at HIS arrest, when one tried to stop the injustice with arms…HE forbid it and went along as our example…and in HIS life HE declared, if one is to follow HIM, they too must take up their cross…

    so, no i do not believe in the war in afghanistan, or iraq or sudan or anywhere and NOWHERE is there a teaching for the church to wage war like the world does in this life…

    the kingdom is entered into by great suffering…that is our promise…to be cursed yet bless in return…to be hated yet love in return…to offer life but be killed for it…

    the old testament has many stories for you to use here, but they do not change the fact that there is not ONE teaching of the apostles or our LORD that allows for one of HIS to kill another person…

    like in the ot…when elijah called down fire and killed folks…

    that was the way under the o.t. and hte prophets…

    but when JESUS followers wished to do the same, HE asked them if htey knew what SPIRIT they were of…

    those are people under two different covenents…

    i see very often in our walk where it is acceptable to die for another…but never have i found that it is accpetable to kill for another…

    our war is not against flesh and blood, josh… it is against spiritual wicked in high place..not the pawns they use on earth…


  39. Seldom,

    If there is no justification for a Christian to take up arms, then I guess that all of the Christians who fought the Nazis have sinned. So, then to have a standing army is a sin. And to have police officers with weapons is a sin.

    You assume that God is ignorant of the misery of tyranny, seldom.


  40. If a man breaks into your house with a knife, what will you do? Do you not think that God would uphold the innocent in favor of self defense? What kind of God do you think that he is?


  41. Josh – I do not believe the church should have any opinion on nationa wars. I am still sorting out whther a believer should participate as a citizen, however I have great respect and admiration for thos believers who put their lives on the line. Many people have come to Christ through the witness of a Christian soldier, and with that we praise God!

    As far as self defense it probably is Scriptural but not actually clear. My position is that the Spirit direction mission of the church is unique and must not be tethered in any way to the government’s operation and direction.

    Josh – I appreciate your service and more importantly your witness for Christ.


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