The Debate Goes On

by Mike Ratliff

Ἐὰν ἀγαπᾶτέ με, τὰς ἐντολὰς τὰς ἐμὰς τηρήσετε· κἀγὼ ἐρωτήσω τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἄλλον παράκλητον δώσει ὑμῖν, ἵνα μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ᾖ, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὃ ὁ κόσμος οὐ δύναται λαβεῖν, ὅτι οὐ θεωρεῖ αὐτὸ οὐδὲ γινώσκει· ὑμεῖς γινώσκετε αὐτό, ὅτι παρ᾽ ὑμῖν μένει καὶ ἐν ὑμῖν ἔσται. (John 14:15-17)

“If you love Me, you will keep my commandments; and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Helper that He may be with you into the age, the Spirit of Truth, which the world is not able to receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. You know Him because He will remain in you.” ( John 14:15-17 Possessing the Treasure New Testament V1)

Theological hills that we must die on are so for two reasons. The first is that these are doctrine(s) that make up these hills are critical to the gospel and, of course, the Church and, therefore, God has made it clear that we must stand firm not falling away from these vital truths. The second is that our enemy knows this and continually attacks using all sorts of methods and from every direction. Some of these attacks are from silence as those with correct theology remain quiet offering no support for those standing in the gap preferring to remain on the sidelines not appearing so controversial perhaps.

In any case, my Pastor has been preaching through the Gospel of John for quite some time. This morning he preached on John 14:16-17. I linked to it below. I suggest you listen to the whole thing, however, from the 37 minute to the 40:11 minute mark our Pastor, Rick Holland, talks about the error of Modalism and what went on at Elephant Room 2 with the inclusion of T.D. Jakes. I think he did a good job of putting it into the context of the Doctrine of the Trinity and why that is vital to the health of the Church and each of us as Christians. He closes the sermon with the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is also quite controversial and misunderstood in our time.

Enjoy and be blessed.

Sermon

Soli Deo Gloria!

25 thoughts on “The Debate Goes On

  1. I think this is an important saying from Athanasius to remember; especially regarding those leaders who, by their sophistry, enjoy the middle of the road approach (bridge building) toward those who embrace heretical opinions in the hopes of mentoring them instead of just preaching the Gospel (the first word of which is repentance) and letting God be God.

    “So while those who are far from it may continue to shun it, those whom it has deceived may repent; and, opening the eyes of their heart, may understand that darkness is not light, nor falsehood truth, nor Arianism good; nay, that those who call these men Christians are in great and grievous error, as neither having studied Scripture, nor understanding Christianity at all, and the faith which it contains.”

    Like

  2. This is a good teacher you have Mike.
    I am a man of Penticost. That is I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, as that which is perfect has not yet come again (Jesus). Further, He gave some till we all…That being said, “Pentecostalism” is not the manifestation of Godly gifts, but rather a glorification of the flesh in a paganistic way, as folks seek to be made powerful by having performed these gifts. There is NEVER a testing of the spirits practiced nor warned of. Plus “annointed men” and experiences are worshipped, which is perfect ground for deception as there are no fruits of the Spirit there first but fruit of flesh and deception from the father of lies. Thus I make a clear break from these deceptions and deceivers rejecting them as false.
    Your preacher nails it with regards to the Spirit’s purpose and indwelling. He also accurately explains the difference between hearing from the Holy Spirit audibly and sensing the Holy Spirit’s leading within our spirit. Never does He take us extra-biblical, rather He affirms the Gospel as the Word of Life! The gifts of the Holy Spirit are sorely needed in our fellowship today, but then first we must have the fruits of the Holy Spirit manifested…and they are surely lacking as well. This is why America is in such a sad way today and the fellowships are by and large in no better shape IMO. We must stop rejecting our call to allow the Spirit to manifest the fruit in us, just as we are to earnestly seek the gifts.
    Thanks for sharing the link, Mike!

    Like

  3. Dear Mike,

    People who don’t understand the significance of the Doctrine of the Trinity are simply ill informed. They have not done the hard work of understanding “why” it matters. Only God can move their hearts to seek Him in all truth and give them the ability to comprehend the importance.

    Not to paint all technology with a broad brush of contempt, it certainly does have it’s benefits, but it has also created new issues for the body of Christ that need to be thought through.

    Because we live in an instant, fluid society Pastors and leaders must work within this framework as far as contending for the faith. My heart is heavy for them as this is an enormous burdern(James 3:1). It is difficult with a more “connected” world where everyone is privy to everything everyone is doing. It is apparent that they may have to develope a preemtive model for dealing with previously sound leaders operating outside of historic orthodoxy.

    Many want to pull their hair out because they are sitting back watching a major train wreck and are helpless to alert anyone to the danger or put on the brakes. (Although, we know God is sovereign in ALL things and must relenquish the things we have no controll over in prayer to our precious Lord).

    Let’s pray for God to have mercy on us and give us wisdom and discernment in navigating this new world we have to live in until Christ returns. Pray also for those who are in positions of leadership to remain faithful to Jesus and not the applause of men.

    Thank you for your part as a someone who has been blessed of God to keep on the old paths, which have been tested and tried and found to be sure by the saints throughout the ages.God Bless, charisse

    Like

  4. Well said Charisse and you are very welcome. I am amazed at times that so many see value in abandoning these old paths. What they find is “of this world” and not eternal… Sad, so sad.

    Like

  5. Mickie was able to verbalize something I’ve struggled to express clearly regarding Pentecost and the gifts of the Holy Spirit still being for today vs Pentecostalism. Well said.

    Thanks Mike for reaffirming the important truth of God’s triune existence. Sad days we’re living in that this foundational truth is having to be defended, and that well known preachers are shamelessly embracing heretics…

    Like

  6. Carolyn, you are very welcome. The push right now is an attempt to “marginalize” within evangelicalism anyone who stands up against this march towards doctrinal plurality that is the goal of the Elephant Room. That is why so many who should be standing firm and fighting against it are not. We must continue to pray for God to expose the rotten core of this to Christians as He raises up those who proclaim His truth regardless of attacks like this in attempts to disgrace those who stand up against the lies.

    Like

  7. Thank you carolynb!
    The problem is that 1 Corinthians is not read as a letter, as it needs to be. Thus context gets lost as men take parts of it and try to make it say something other then was intended by Paul. Now we know that the one who quotes scripture, out of context, to make it appear to say what they twist it to say are of their father, the devil, who tempts all men this way. We know too that he has been quite successful at this even attempting to cause our Lord to be tempted. All men fell to these temptations, save Jesus, as He answered satan successfully by the Word in context!
    Paul did not write this letter to praise the church at Corinth, but rather to correct many errors, They were a carnal lot then, much as we see today in the fellowships. However we find many preachers today turning his correction into a license to act in carnal fashion as if it were spiritual, This is pagan behavior. Thus Paul through this letter, is correcting many flesh practices of this church, calling on the elect to conform themselves to the Word of God he preached to them…And there were many sinfilled errors occurring. We would all do well not to chop this wonderful letter of correction up into pieces to fit our carnal ideas today either! We need to re-read this entire book as the letter it was intended to be, and see the wonderful teaching, for all would profit wonderfully from such a reading, as we approach it from the standpoint of, not what I can get from it for my benefit, but rather Lord what are YOU wanting to show me regarding the Truth You are providing.
    Finally, I would encourage all to do so at their earliest opportunity, and to count all prior learned traditions/biases as dung just as Paul did his past and to read it afresh, in its entirety for the Truth He placed there for our betterment.

    Like

  8. Mike brother you live in Kansas? Man I’ve been through the LENGTH of your state going to Colorado and it took ALL DAY. I call your state the 24 hour state. I live all the way down in LA-Lower Alabama 5 miles from the Florida state line. We hardly ever get snow here. Tis okay we love to go saltwater fishing much more than snow…

    Anyways, I wasn’t able to listen to your pastor much. I will later.

    God knows what he’s doing and he’s calling out his remnant. May look like a train wreck but we keep clinging onto the faith once for all given to the saints

    I muse at our relationship with our Triune God and the TRUTH of true unity. Jesus gave us a glimpse of what it’s like-Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    How can anyone truly worship God when we get our greatest Joy in giving God the Father all the glory for His Son in our lives? I have found the truest unity is when I’ve acknowledged in my fellowship with him of being AWARE OF ALL 3 in my life. God created us to have relationships and our relationships reflect his Character with his relationship within the Godhead. I could not EVER accept modalism because you cannot worship God if he’s just one person in 3 modes. That’s a contradiction to who he actually is. He couldn’t have died on the cross if he were just one person. All this modalism denies the Essential doctrines of our faith.It all comes unraveled with the single strand.

    Jhn 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: :23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

    I look forwards to finishing listening to your Pastor.
    Sorry if I digressed from the subject

    Like

  9. Linda, I live in a suburb of Kansas City on the Kansas side. Last year at this time, we had about 5 feet of snow on the ground and it just sat there until the Spring thaw with about an inch or so falling every couple of days until then. This year, we have had less than .5 inches of snow for the whole winter and it has been very dry. I don’t miss shoveling snow and I don’t have to commute since I work from home, but this sort of winter is not real winter. It reminds me of the winters we used to have in Oklahoma when I was little. I remember years without snow or if it did, it melted the same day. I suffer from allergies and I feel the best when it is very cold and I am in a warm, dry place.

    I hope you do get to listen to rest of Rick Holland’s message for he does talk about what a blessing it is to know the Doctrine of the Trinity and how we know it is through through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. He also talks a lot about the true ministry of the Holy Spirit.

    Like

  10. Mike – you are right, the push toward ecumenical “unity” is quite strong. And these “conferences” seem to be nothing more than prime venues for promoting plurality. The saddest part to me, however, is when sound believers feel they need to defer to those who promulgate error, all in the name of “love”.

    Mickey – YES!!! 1 Cor the letter in its entirety is mostly a rebuke of fleshiness!!! So the context of chapters 12-14 must be understood in the midst of the heart of the letter.

    Personally I’m not a big fan of what the Bible calls “vain traditions of men”, and my husband and I do our best as the Lord leads to rid ourselves of them.

    Like

  11. I apprecite you carolynb and all those who love the Lord on this site who seek His Will to be done here on earth as it is in heaven!

    Like

  12. Mike,

    At 7:40 on the video of your pastor, he starts talking about the “tongues” lesson for kindergartners. He eventually read the “syllables” the children are supposed to repeat. Was I hearing things or was final the syllable set: sa-ta-no-mo. Look at that carefully. Really.

    Like

  13. That’s what I thought. Are we so blind as not to see a certain name in that chant? Also, do you remember last year’s “Daniel Plan” debacle, courtesy Saddleback? That “charismatic” chant is almost the same chant as the kundalini yoga mantra that one of the new age doctors (Dr. Amen) recommends in one of his books. Just change the no-mo to na-ma and you’ve got it. Either way the certain name is still there.

    Like

  14. Carolyn, just look at how hard these people are working to make it so offensive for anyone to question another’s theology. That is unless it is Orthodox Historical and the Theology taught by the Apostles and the Lord Jesus Himself. That theology can be dragged through the mud with impunity, but if we so much as point out the evil contained in those chants that you talked out, watch out! Then we are unloving and close minded… Can’t wait for the coming of the Lord…

    Like

  15. Wonderful message Mike and I enjoyed your Pastor.

    I cannot stop thinking about that one verse your Pastor brought up-John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show (myself to him).”

    I keep wanting to figure that one out.

    And indoctrinating Children with the unbiblical practice of “speaking in tongues”?? Oh that just kills me. All that is- is autosuggestion. They forgot to read the verse that says the Holy Spirit is the one who gives gifts according to HIS WILL-. Hebr 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

    no doubt the babbling they are teaching is NOT from God but the great Counterfeiter-Satan

    Our main motivation for desiring other gifts is out of our love for GOD because of his love for us in Christ. 1Cr 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

    God richly bless you Mike and all on this site whom dearly love each other with the love of God poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who cries Abba Father. the Only true unity by the TRUTH, true Peace because the Prince of Peace

    Like

  16. Amen dear brother Mike, it brings us JOY -truth is for joy

    Nooo, Thank you Mike and all glory to God for his grace and mercy and unfailing love in our lives. WE get to worship the Lord forever.. How great is that??

    Like

Comments are closed.